Following on from the Sharon Hunt thread .... training method differences?

[Yann]

Not so. Every water complex looks different. Even if running the same event for a second time they may well use a different route through.

How come my happy hacking horse will go into water she's never seen before without much of a look then? Of course training plays its part, the more a horse that's expected to jump into water is exposed to different situations the more confident and trusting of its riders judgement it's going to become.

If training really makes no difference then surely stops going into water would be far more common than they actually are?

 

[Zani]

Is it possible that a horse stabled 24/7 is fit to event?

 

[Esther.D]

Then, if it doesn't go as planned and the horse refuses to jump a fence completely, or leave the start box completely, then perhaps it's best to retire and go pop over some practise fences. Getting angry and making doing the right thing more difficult, makes overall success more difficult.

x

Or, just to be controversial here, that tells the horse one of two things -

a. OMG the rider is scared of the fence too AARRGGGHH!
b. oooh, all I need to do is stop and then I get to go home and do as I like

(I do appreciate that the practise fence is added to try and reduce this)

I have had horses and ponies who would read either of those into that response.

 

[S_F_S]

I think it also has to be remembered that highly gifted horses (just like people) often tend to be quite quirky. Its part of what makes them brilliant. Hobby riders will often a) avoid the quirky ones completely or b) fail miserably to deal with the quirkiness. It is just these sort of horses that the pro's have to deal with day in, day out.

Echo, agree, what he said... etc

When you are talking about pros horses you are talking about a totally different kettle of fish, and all the experience in the world with safe and sane hobby horse is no use in understanding a really talented horse!

 

[BIrish]

I mean, these horses work hard and are looked after by professionals but lets not think that they have the life of luxury as they don't. They travel for immense distances, are pretty much stabled 24/7 they have little forage in their diet compared to say, us lot who own horses for pleasure. They do have quite stressful lives and as a result you cannot expect the horse to be putty in their hands 24/7.
x

Ahh.. I see. I thought you meant horses were impressed by flashy lorries .. sorry, my mistake..

Yes.. they don't have the life that maybe a horse would see as ideal but they have the best care that can be given to them in their circumstances ..

I do think any horse can be awkward sometimes though.. it's not just down to welfare.. grass kept horses with low stress demands can have off days, just as a stabled racehorse can... I never "expect" a horse to be putty in my hands.. ever.. (quickest route to hospital IMO ) and I would expect a stabled, uber-fit and tuned athlete to be even less predictable tbh .. and I would think professionals never expect these horses to be putty either.. that's why they are at the top of their game .. but there is never (IMO) any excuse for deliberate and obvious disobedience.

 

[Kc..]

Echo, agree, what he said... etc

When you are talking about pros horses you are talking about a totally different kettle of fish, and all the experience in the world with safe and sane hobby horse is no use in understanding a really talented horse!

IMHO a horse is a horse, whether it's talented or not. There are plenty of less talented horses out there that are quirky.

I can fully understand though that a very fit athlete on no turnout is completely different to a happy hacker.

But the horse at my yard now which came 15th at Badminton Geoff Lucket (i think it was him, it was someone with a name like that anyway) is just like any other horse. However he weeves and cribs. Not something he's developed since the lady who has him now bought him i'm afraid.

 

[BIrish]

How come my happy hacking horse will go into water she's never seen before without much of a look then? Of course training plays its part, the more a horse that's expected to jump into water is exposed to different situations the more confident and trusting of its riders judgement it's going to become.

If training really makes no difference then surely stops going into water would be far more common than they actually are?

Is your hacking water surrounded by hundreds of spectators with flash cameras, barking dogs and roaring quads ? Are there a million distractions and noises around you ? Are you expecting your horse to jump in, over a 1.20m solid fence into a water obstacle it can barely see or have time to judge ?

It's not the same IMO.. at all. Stan will happily cross water he's never seen before etc but that doesn't mean that he will do the same in a highly pressured environment..

 

[BIrish]

.

But the horse at my yard now which came 15th at Badminton Geoff Lucket (i think it was him, it was someone with a name like that anyway) is just like any other horse. However he weeves and cribs. Not something he's developed since the lady who has him now bought him i'm afraid.

Geoff Luckett is a SJer .. Weaving and cribbing isn't a ridden quirk that can mean it can be hugely difficult to get a horse to do a basic dressage test let alone go cross country safely!

 

[Esther.D]

And do they have their adrenaline pumping at the time? That makes a big difference to behaviour.

 

[lottie.dot]

Ahh.. I see. I thought you meant horses were impressed by flashy lorries .. sorry, my mistake..

Yes.. they don't have the life that maybe a horse would see as ideal but they have the best care that can be given to them in their circumstances ..

I do think any horse can be awkward sometimes though.. it's not just down to welfare.. grass kept horses with low stress demands can have off days, just as a stabled racehorse can... I never "expect" a horse to be putty in my hands.. ever.. (quickest route to hospital IMO ) and I would expect a stabled, uber-fit and tuned athlete to be even less predictable tbh .. and I would think professionals never expect these horses to be putty either.. that's why they are at the top of their game .. but there is never (IMO) any excuse for deliberate and obvious disobedience.

Yes I see where you come from.. Any horse can be awkward, just as I don't know anyone who hasn't every annoyed me at some point. We can't please everyone.. But also we don't perform our best every second of the day. There are times when I don't listen to my boss (god forbid) there are times when I put my foot in it and act stupidly or whatever and I think there has to be that room for horses too. As I said, no one is perfect for ever, we all have our moments and it looks like this horse has too. I do think it would be too much to ask for perfection (in terms of getting the perfect response from our horses each time, or even them behaving as we asked everytime) So to sum it up I just wouldn't strive for my horses obedience 100% as I couldn't get it... I been happy with 90%- And on top of that, I think he decided he wasn't going to go (Sharon's Horse) and it happened to be Badminton the biggest event of the year. He wasn't to know... (or did he!!!) lol

 

[puzzles]

Or, just to be controversial here, that tells the horse one of two things -

a. OMG the rider is scared of the fence too AARRGGGHH!
b. oooh, all I need to do is stop and then I get to go home and do as I like

(I do appreciate that the practise fence is added to try and reduce this)

I have had horses and ponies who would read either of those into that response.

That's a good point. But they aren't the only reasons a horse refuses a fence. But I don't think it's about 'winning' or 'losing' and the rider getting his/her way over the horse's ... and I think that good preparation can minimise the chance of the two above factors playing a part.
Considering the tense and excited atmosphere of an event, the different horses and smells, flashing cameras etc ... an 'amateur' horse may be just as accustomed as a 'professional' (not that horses see themselves as being either of those labels) if both compete regularly, so in that way I don't think there is necessarily a difference between them.

x

 

[Esther.D]

Totally agree puzzles

I think ones response is inevitably coloured by experience - I have had years training Shetland ponies (hence the devious response ) and have also had a project New Forest who would go ARRRRRGGGGHHHH at any opportunity

 

[Chilli]

So what’s makes a horse an amateur or pro horse?

My horse is by one of John Whitikers Show jumping stallions and his sire was one of Hugo Simons that cleaned up in Europe.

If it’s about breeding mine is more pro than many pro horses, yet he’s never done any type of completion in his life and has been treated like a baby all his life.

I think Yann has point, it’s about the work people put into their horses outside the competitions that builds the trust between horse an rider which minimises the horse questioning what’s in front of it or being distracted.

Police horses manage to get by pretty well with all the distractions in riots and I’m lead to believe that’s due to training.

I think people just assume a pro knows what they are doing rightly or wrongly.

 

[Yann]

Is your hacking water surrounded by hundreds of spectators with flash cameras, barking dogs and roaring quads ? Are there a million distractions and noises around you ? Are you expecting your horse to jump in, over a 1.20m solid fence into a water obstacle it can barely see or have time to judge ?

My hacking horse was just an example of how training can get you somewhere, she didn't used to be as good at it.

So how come police horses manage to stay calm and obedient in the middle of a riot? If you need your horse to deal with something difficult you expose and desensitise it, whatever its job is.

When you are talking about pros horses you are talking about a totally different kettle of fish, and all the experience in the world with safe and sane hobby horse is no use in understanding a really talented horse!

Talented? Maybe in our terms, but possibly not happy. They're still horses, but pumped up, fired up (stressed?) horses because of the way they're kept and managed. Leave them in a field for a year to get hairy and muddy and I doubt you'd tell them apart from any other horse most of the time.

 

[S_F_S]

Treu Yann, but I made my point in reference to people passing opinion on how pros should handle their horses at events, with little to no experience of handling competition horses -as this thread is titled to suggest it is a spin off from the long long long one!

 

[BIrish]

Police horses manage to get by pretty well with all the distractions in riots and I’m lead to believe that’s due to training.

I think people just assume a pro knows what they are doing rightly or wrongly.

So how come police horses manage to stay calm and obedient in the middle of a riot? If you need your horse to deal with something difficult you expose and desensitise it, whatever its job is.
.

Police horses don't... as a well known thread a few months ago on here would prove.. and many people objected to the fact that a police horse should remain professional and desentisited throughout anything no matter the training it has had..

I'll try to find the thread...

 

[Zani]

Does anyone think, possibly, that pro horses that come from big yards where the "professional rider" has lots of horses to compete, may be more used to, and therefore have more trust in, their daily grooms/handlers/exercisers and that may have an effect also?

 

[Yann]

Treu Yann, but I made my point in reference to people passing opinion on how pros should handle their horses at events, with little to no experience of handling competition horses

I still don't see that it makes any difference, or excuses unreasonable behaviour towards any horse (not that this particular case was anything to write home about). If anything they should know better and be able to deal with things more tactfully if they're such good horsemen.

 

[Chilli]

Police horses don't... as a well known thread a few months ago on here would prove.. and many people objected to the fact that a police horse should remain professional and desentisited throughout anything no matter the training it has had..

I'll try to find the thread...

The ones i've seen in the riot training in a big blacked ot hangar to simulate night with misiles and petrol bombs being thrown at them seemed to get by ok, better than any of mine would and they have no problem with low flying fighters screaming past them, it's all down to what they are accustomed to, it make no different to mine what type of jet it is or which way it's flying over, same for baloons, helicopters and the guy in the para power.

I think thats why the top riders are the top riders they have gained the trust of the horse.

 

[Yann]

Police horses don't...

That's a rather sweeping statement?

Since it's clearly possible for a horse to learn to deal with all the distractions of a large event I don't really see what the issue is.