Following on from the Sharon Hunt thread .... training method differences?

[CER1389]

So I was thinking whilst reading the Sharon Hunt badminton thread .... is there a difference in the way a professional rider regards and deals with a horse, compared to your every day hobby horse* keeper? Are there certain things they can get away with doing, that would be hugely frowned upon for a hobby horse keeper?

Is there a different approach in handling and dealing with the horses? Affection wise or attitude and approach? Should there be? Is there a segregation? Does it depend on rider in question or the type of competition they are involved in?

Whats acceptable to one type of rider, and why is that not as accpeted for the other type of rider?


*Before certain members (you know who you are, JD, Doey!) decide to stir up mischief, I mean hobby horse as in keeping horses as a recreational past time ... not owners of horses with a head, bitless bridle and a stick

 

[jaydevon]

So I was thinking whilst reading the Sharon Hunt badminton thread .... is there a difference in the way a professional rider regards and deals with a horse, compared to your every day hobby horse* keeper? Are there certain things they can get away with doing, that would be hugely frowned upon for a hobby horse keeper?

Is there a different approach in handling and dealing with the horses? Affection wise or attitude and approach? Should there be? Is there a segregation? Does it depend on rider in question or the type of competition they are involved in?

Whats acceptable to one type of rider, and why is that not as accpeted for the other type of rider?


*Before certain members (you know who you are, JD, Doey!) decide to stir up mischief, I mean hobby horse as in keeping horses as a recreational past time ... not owners of horses with a head, bitless bridle and a stick

but but i do keep horses as a recreational past time! (taking a whip to the husband would land me in jail the rspca tend to do naff all )

 

[BIrish]

There is a great difference IMO.. these horses and the sport they compete in are their living.. The horses are beautifully cared for and training is designed to get the best from the horses .. to get the best from a horse you can't be brutal.. but being firm but fair is the order of the day.. They love their horses though.. they really do.

I'm not a professional but I don't mollycoddle my horses and saw absolutely nothing wrong with what happened with Tankerstown today. I adore them but they know their boundaries and what is acceptable behaviour. Anyone can handle them and I mean anyone.. they have NO issues.. But both of them come to the gate when they see me open the back door, they are both affectionate and settled. They both trust me.

And I'm not joking when I say I have a bit of blue pipe..

 

[CER1389]

It's just something I find very intersting.

I was at an event today with my YM (horse I was telling you about last night BI). The show was a low level event with one well known rider there who obviously hadn't got into Badminton/had nothing at that level.

We were stood at the water jump and a rider came to it, the horse was backing off from a way away and the rider kept kicking and urging it forward, using her whip and spurs BUT taking off the pressure when the horse was going forward. Ran backwards on reaching the water and got a single smack to go forwards, moment horse went forwards rider represented, a single smack of the whip and a 'GO ON!' as well as kicking, still tried to run backwards, again whip used ot make it go forwards before representing a final time. The final approach had much firmer whip useage, and more kicking and yelling - horse went into the water.

Now in my eyes the rider was justified in how they used the whip, was firm and increased the pressure on each approach, they took the pressure off every time the horse got the desired action (going forward) and rewarded. Once into the water the rider yelled "good boy!" followed by pats on exiting the water and moving onto the next fence. Myself and my friend applauded when this rider got the horse into the water However the other spectators were muttering about the rider, saying they were going to report for unnecessary use of the whip, it was bad horsemanship etc.

Immediatley after that rider was the well known 'professional' rider. Horse backing off from miles, rider is immediatley there with spurs, a few short, sharp smacks of whip and lots of growling .... horse goes forward and into the water. Now again I feel the rider reacted accordingly and have no issue with how they rode .... but this time the spectators were applauding and muttering to themselves how excellently ridden it was.

So why was it acceptable for a professional rider to use their whip (probably a similar number of times, shorter length of time) and be aggressive, but not for a lesser known rider?

I'd planned this thread based on that experience today anyway .... the Sharon Hunt thing is a coincidence but I think they tie in nicely.

 

[Calli]

yeah i see what you mean, like a young horse backing off yeah i dont think i would feel any differant towards a none proffessional doing that tbh

but i also think prep should be done before entering events

and also trust goes a long way, cant make a horse do a job it dosnt enjoy without force so if it isnt up for it you will never be the combination you need to be to succeed so out it and get one that does want to , or switch to a sport the horse enjoys

but in all fairness dont worry too much for riding trough a youngster, totally feel your sentiments most people watching just dont know, why worry about their ignorance, they only accept the proff riders actions as good.......truth is because they dont really know !!

 

[greasedweasel]

I adore them but they know their boundaries and what is acceptable behaviour. Anyone can handle them and I mean anyone.. they have NO issues.. But both of them come to the gate when they see me open the back door, they are both affectionate and settled. They both trust me.

And I'm not joking when I say I have a bit of blue pipe..

Totally agree, our horses are sane, sensible and easy to handle. With over twenty I don't have time for habits that other people might find cute or appealing (you know the sort "he likes to stand on the ramp for ten minutes but he always walks in...." Arghhhhhhhh) they have to do what they are told, when they are told.

 

[Yann]

So why was it acceptable for a professional rider to use their whip (probably a similar number of times, shorter length of time) and be aggressive, but not for a lesser known rider?

It wasn't really, but because the rider is a professional who should know what they're doing on a horse that should know what it's doing there's a definite tendency to view them differently and suspend criticism. Fact is nobody is infallible and viewing something as a job rather than a hobby is going to make you more likely to do whatever it takes to get the job done, that's human nature.

It's never the case that horses 'should' know how to do something just because they're a competition horse, have a splendid sire or cost £25k. If a horse is backing off water, it's because of a gap in its training, and having to try and deal with it as you're coming up to it means you've left it way too late.

 

[~*sugarlump*~]

I am in no way condoning what some "famous riders do", however I can see why they do it sometimes. Horses are their jobs and their lives basically, so when it goes very wrong I think they get put under alot more stress than the "normal" rider who goes to shows ever other weekend.

 

[StormyJ]

There is a great difference IMO.. these horses and the sport they compete in are their living.. The horses are beautifully cared for and training is designed to get the best from the horses .. to get the best from a horse you can't be brutal.. but being firm but fair is the order of the day.. They love their horses though.. they really do.

I'm not a professional but I don't mollycoddle my horses and saw absolutely nothing wrong with what happened with Tankerstown today. I adore them but they know their boundaries and what is acceptable behaviour. Anyone can handle them and I mean anyone.. they have NO issues.. But both of them come to the gate when they see me open the back door, they are both affectionate and settled. They both trust me.

And I'm not joking when I say I have a bit of blue pipe..

Echo that
I'm sure I could find a bit of blue pipe somewhere, although truth be told I normally go for whatever I'm holding at the time - a wet sponge at washing off time makes a good noise too
With professinal horses you can accept their quirks as long as they play by the rules. We don't mind a bit of leg waving because they all know (mostly through bitter experience!) what happens the second that leg makes contact!
If they reared once on the way in we wouldn't spend time analysing it or practising leading - they'd get a whack and next time they were led we would just say "Flibbertygibbet was a bit sharp last time so just be careful" - and move on.

 

[DavidH]

If a horse is backing off water, it's because of a gap in its training, and having to try and deal with it as you're coming up to it means you've left it way too late.

Not so. Every water complex looks different. Even if running the same event for a second time they may well use a different route through.
There is no way you can prepare for this. A horse may well go through all the local water complexes without a care in the world and still back off on approach to a new (to the horse) complex. If training at home could resolve all horse issues then no one would ever have any faults on XC or SJ.

 

[helenc]

Not so. Every water complex looks different. Even if running the same event for a second time they may well use a different route through.
There is no way you can prepare for this. A horse may well go through all the local water complexes without a care in the world and still back off on approach to a new (to the horse) complex. If training at home could resolve all horse issues then no one would ever have any faults on XC or SJ.

That is a very good point!

As I also said on the other thread - you can't possibly train for every single issue at competition!

How would you have every type and style of fence, every water complex, every terrain etc... it's not possible, you just have to have the ability to ride in both pro-active and reactive ways if/when the need arises

 

[kyanya]

I think professional riders should expect a fairly high amount of their horses. The horses are well cared for, well trained but have a job to do - if the horse doesn't do that job, bills might not be able to be paid, dinner might not be able to be put on the table. The horse has a big responsibility on his shoulders that isn't echoed in situations where horses are used for pleasure.

If Sharon didn't get TT to start, it jeopardises her career, hence her actions to try and get him to go. If it was me on my horse at the start of a fun XC, I don't think I would use such force but that's because I've nothing to gain from doing it and not much to lose from not doing it.

I also think tho that if it's OK for a professional to do something, amateurs should also be able to do the same if they so choose. If an amateur had also put in the training/care to a horse to get it to do something and then it refuses, they should be able to get after the horse without it being frowned upon. The problem is though that onlookers are unaware of the training put it - a horse might be more than capable and trained but being naughty, but likewise it might be genuniely scared due to insufficient preparation and the ask is unfair on the horse - it's hard to tell which of these scenarios it is as an onlookers with no inside info.

 

[DavidH]

I think it also has to be remembered that highly gifted horses (just like people) often tend to be quite quirky. Its part of what makes them brilliant. Hobby riders will often a) avoid the quirky ones completely or b) fail miserably to deal with the quirkiness. It is just these sort of horses that the pro's have to deal with day in, day out.

 

[Sticky's GF]

If Sharon didn't get TT to start, it jeopardises her career, hence her actions to try and get him to go. If it was me on my horse at the start of a fun XC, I don't think I would use such force but that's because I've nothing to gain from doing it and not much to lose from not doing it.

I have to say I haven't seen the footage, but I think I would have done the same. OK I am not a pro rider, but if I've put in the prep, taken a day off work, forked out for entry fees and driven miles and miles I would be less than impressed if horse decided he didn't want to go into the start box!!!

 

[kyanya]

Footage wasn't bad at all - Sharon was asking him to walk forward with voice, legs, whip, someone on the floor at his head was moving his head to the side to try and get him to reposition his feet, but if he did he just took one step and then replanted himself, someone behind chucking a headcollar at his bum to get him to go forward. They weren't flogging him at all and if he'd taken a step forward, there's no question that all the pressure would have come off him.

I can't understand why there was an controversy. It's not like the horse was getting panicky and dangerous because he was getting scared ... he was standing quite calmly just saying 'No thanks, not today'. Not acceptable, don't think horse would like it if Sharon & grooms said to the horse 'Can't be bothered to feed/water/groom you today, sorry'.

 

[lottie.dot]

I would have to differ a little on the front that the horses are very well cared for (in the sporting industry) I mean they may seem well cared for in view of what a human would like, but not really what the horses want!

However, they have to be fit and raring to go, to a degree and obviously take some pleasure of the sort from the task or they wouldn't make it - So in terms of having smart stables, big lorries and flashy tack and dedicated training programmes: yes they are well cared for!

 

[BIrish]

I would have to differ a little on the front that the horses are very well cared for (in the sporting industry) I mean they may seem well cared for in view of what a human would like, but not really what the horses want!

However, they have to be fit and raring to go, to a degree and obviously take some pleasure of the sort from the task or they wouldn't make it - So in terms of having smart stables, big lorries and flashy tack and dedicated training programmes: yes they are well cared for!

Not sure what you mean by that ?

 

[Kc..]

IMO there is a massive difference however i really don't think there should be.

Obviously there will be a difference, not all top riders can go and snuggle all there horses every day. However i do believe that to a lot of top competition riders horses are just machines (no that does not mean everyone) and i also believe every horse, whether it's highly talented and quirky or not needs a degree of affection.

I mean a lot of competition horses are either not turned out or are on seperate turnout (again not all) so they aren't even quality time with another horse let alone a human.

I also believe that far to much time goes into making them physically strong enough to cope with it all however not enough time is spent mentally preparing them. For example with Lantern i do SO much with him in hand as he can be quite spooky & nappy. Working him in hand really builds up his confidence in situations he otherwise would react badly to. But it seems to me top competition riders forget the mental side of it. (obviously i am not refering to every single competition rider.)

I find it really dissapointing in the response the Sharron Hunt thread received. I'm not a fluffy bunny, i don't have a carrot stick and i am not afraid to use a whip if i need to, however it is common sense... crowding a frieghtened horse IS NOT going to get you anywhere. I fail to understand quotes like this...

I can't understand why there was an controversy. It's not like the horse was getting panicky and dangerous because he was getting scared ... he was standing quite calmly just saying 'No thanks, not today'. Not acceptable, don't think horse would like it if Sharon & grooms said to the horse 'Can't be bothered to feed/water/groom you today, sorry'.

Many horses show there fear in different ways, i know plenty of horses that will just plant in fear. And the more you push them the less likely to move they are going to be. How the heck do you know that's what he was thinking? I think there was a quote from Sharon in the other thread explaining what happened and she gave a reason for it.

No i'm not saying be all nicey nicey to horses and let them walk all over you i'm saying maybe every now and again the 'horse lovers' could perhaps look at it through the horses eyes. They aren't machines.

 

[puzzles]

Footage wasn't bad at all - Sharon was asking him to walk forward with voice, legs, whip, someone on the floor at his head was moving his head to the side to try and get him to reposition his feet, but if he did he just took one step and then replanted himself, someone behind chucking a headcollar at his bum to get him to go forward. They weren't flogging him at all and if he'd taken a step forward, there's no question that all the pressure would have come off him.

I can't understand why there was an controversy. It's not like the horse was getting panicky and dangerous because he was getting scared ... he was standing quite calmly just saying 'No thanks, not today'. Not acceptable, don't think horse would like it if Sharon & grooms said to the horse 'Can't be bothered to feed/water/groom you today, sorry'.

But the horse doesn't think like that. That's human logic, not horse logic; and chastising or blaming a horse for not thinking like it's rider isn't right or fair.
Ditto Yann while I accept that each fence will look different, there are so many things that rider's can do to prepare the horse and gain enough trust for the horse to listen to the rider when s/he says "GO!" whether it has seen that fence before, or not. Then, if it doesn't go as planned and the horse refuses to jump a fence completely, or leave the start box completely, then perhaps it's best to retire and go pop over some practise fences. Getting angry and making doing the right thing more difficult, makes overall success more difficult.

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[lottie.dot]

Not sure what you mean by that ?

I mean, these horses work hard and are looked after by professionals but lets not think that they have the life of luxury as they don't. They travel for immense distances, are pretty much stabled 24/7 they have little forage in their diet compared to say, us lot who own horses for pleasure. They do have quite stressful lives and as a result you cannot expect the horse to be putty in their hands 24/7.
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