whats the difference between NH and IH?

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Getting the horse to follow a pair of running clippers is also an effective add on to their training.
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Winterwood, good points to ponder. :) You mention this “add on” only after writing quite a bit about traditional approach and retreat and desensitizing methods. The people I consider NH would begin with the “following the scary object”. It’s one of the areas I’ve watched the “tv” clinicians change their own methods recently. (it’s fun to watch them learn/refine from each other ) In your post it almost sounds like an after thought.


I personally have not seen Monty use any sort of chute set up when working on a horse with a foot handling problem in a demo. I have seen it used on one of his DVD's when working with a wild mustang.
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IH will, if it helps the horse understand what is required, use pen panels to encourage a horse to load
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So IH does use fence panels? That’s another difference IMO. I’ve never seen an NH type horseman use a fence panel for training though I do see “chutes” used for shoeing draft horses or vet treatments etc., but not to prevent movement, either or forward or backward when training.


Well, there's metal barriers and there's mental barriers. I've seen PP using the latter, to give the horse the choice
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I stopped after “choice” on purpose. That’s a interesting “word” amongst horses. Probably worth exploring a bit, :)


As for the “scarring” of horses, either mental or physical. If that’s a problem for folks to understand they might want to “go back” a bit in their search for good horsemanship. I do believe that as many horses are “messed up” by a “lack of firmness” as there are by “too much firmness”. In my experience most horses will get away from too much firmness pretty naturally, unless somehow restrained. I hope that neither mental or physical scars are found commonly in IH or NH. I’m sure not looking for those kind of differences in the methods I talk about. :)

It’s those other differences I refer too. I’ve noticed that there seem to be a pretty limited number of NH trainers in the UK (an other places) and most of them have either evolved around Monty Roberts or Pat Parelli. This gives a pretty limited view of folks to learn from or compare. There’s probably “more alike” than “differences” between them, but it’s the differences that offer the opportunity to compare.


Keep on, Keepin on

Jack
 
In your post it almost sounds like an after thought.
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It isn't central to dealing with clipping problems as far as I'm aware possibly because of the difficulties with power cables (unless you have a cordless set), but I was taught to turn the clippers off any time the horse made any kind of move towards them which is along the same lines. It is however a standard tactic with other sorts of problems, I think Monty R had a phobic horse following a motorbike in a round pen at the first demo of his I ever went to.
 
Francis, "Choice" is a lot like "Feel". Books could be written about it's different meanings and applications. One thing for sure, the word "Choice" has a lot of meaning to a horse. I'll offer one example but it's probably "off topic". Might give some insight into my own way of thinking about some stuff.


I said,

In my experience it rarely happens like this. Shoot, I’ve got broke horses that sometimes won’t lift a foot willingly

Yann said,

The horse isn't always 100% calm and quiet, but the handler should be and the horse should soon end up that way too, a training session should never turn into a bloodbath. Not having a pop, but I'm slightly surprised at the second statement.
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Yann, not certain which of my statements suprise you but I'll try and give a meaningful example of my personal experience.

In two weeks I will attend an auction where I will enter stalls with unknown horses of all ages. These horses will be unattended, and usually untied, wearing only a halter. I will spend the day enjoying the challenge of meeting and picking up the feet of a bunch of different and unknown horses. I won't be able to use sticks or special halters etc., just horsemanship. My success in picking up these unknown feet will depend on my ability to "convince the horse" that "I have the knowledge and ability" (believe!) to pick up those feet. Most will resist the initial attempt, (brace/kick) looking for their other "choices". Sometimes horses need to explore the options a bit. :) Horses are pretty smart, doesn't take em long to "choose" the better deal.

My own horses are better but there isn't a one that doesn't continue to "check" and see if they've missed something, or more likely that I have. :rolleyes: It's those "tests" that I find so enjoyable with horses, and I suspect they enjoy giving them to me.


Does that address the "surprise",


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
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I was slightly surprised because with my own horses lifting a foot is one area where I pretty much take things for granted, and that goes for most of the other horses I see and sometimes handle on a daily basis.

I won't be able to use sticks or special halters etc., just horsemanship. My success in picking up these unknown feet will depend on my ability to "convince the horse" that "I have the knowledge and ability" (believe!) to pick up those feet
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I've no doubt you're very capable. However the hand on a stick or padded walking stick aren't essential or integral to the approach, all they are is a means of making the job a little safer and keeping the handler out of the kick zone. Perhaps you should try them? :D
 
I think i need to re-read most of the thread...and I thought the answer would be simple!
 
don't reckon there is a right or wrong answer K8D, if that helps.

It's all about the interpretation of different approaches and techniques from your individual perspective. And how you apply them as you see it working for you.
 
Going back to the original question, I think Raingodz was about right. NH is an umbrella term applied to a wide range of training approaches, methods and philosophies which claim to work with the horse's natural behaviour and view of the world in the foreground. (I say "claim" because some certainly do this better than others, and some claim they are NH when many would say they aren't!).

IH is just one of these many approaches - so you could say, in a nutshell, that IH is one branch of NH.

What's hugely complicated and complex is the differences between different types of NH, and their relative merits!
 
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As a parelliist who went to see Monty Roberts in action last night I would have to say that between those 2 specifically, there are actually very few differences.

I was struck again and again at the similar language/techniques/approach etc and have to say what a great bloke and horseman Monty is - Id really like to adopt him as an honorary grandad although judging the energy of the man, he'd run rings around the whole family :D
 
levi1739 said:
As for the “scarring” of horses, either mental or physical. If that’s a problem for folks to understand they might want to “go back” a bit in their search for good horsemanship. I do believe that as many horses are “messed up” by a “lack of firmness” as there are by “too much firmness”.
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Not exactly sure what you mean there Jack but here’s a thought, a horse can feel a fly anywhere on it’s body so any work with a horse that uses much more pressure than that of a fly is no longer just about communication but persuading/forcing a horse and the need for firmness or a lot of pressure is really a compensator for talent which may lead those who find the need to be very firm or overly physical to consider taking their horsemanship to a new level?

Perhaps horsemanship is not about what can be accomplished but how little is required to accomplish something and horses are not messed up by a lack of firmness or to much firmness but by a lack of talent?

levi1739 said:
I’ve noticed that there seem to be a pretty limited number of NH trainers in the UK (an other places) and most of them have either evolved around Monty Roberts or Pat Parelli. This gives a pretty limited view of folks to learn from or compare.
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There are NH trainers certified/trained by or instructed by many US as well as from parts of the world including, John/Josh Lyons, Denis Reis, Mark Rashid, Frank Bell, Perelli, Montey Roberts, Jane Lavender etc we don’t have the likes of Curt Pate, Bryan Neubert, Lester Buckley etc but lets be honest a lot of these type of guys aren’t known outside of their own state.

Add the Dressage, Eventing, Jumping and Classical trainers I don’t think we are missing out on much in terms of diversity, a lot of whats available in the states is on the web or available on DVD for the rest of the world to discover if they look.

Then if you look into our past as well…………………….

How much does the US know of the horsemanship it's own came from ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpNXgrKfkig&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKL9hq0wb1k&feature=related
 
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I always enjoy this "feel a fly" concept. These horses are sure sensitive to flys. ;) I got news, people are also that sensitive to flys (and pressure) I’m certain everyone’s familiar with the feeling of a fly on the scalp or face when trying to sleep. That’s a lot of pressure and at times is really irritating. :mad:

a horse can feel a fly anywhere on it’s body so any work with a horse that uses much more pressure than that of a fly is no longer just about communication but persuading/forcing
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Actually Chilli, I consider that fly to be “direct pressure” and the "concept" is the same as hitting with a stick. I much prefer “indirect pressure” whenever possible. I want my horse to communicate with me, not feel me. I know that horses are very aware of my breathing, and that’s where I begin to measure pressure. “Inhale and look” , “Exhale before response”.

Perhaps horsemanship is not about what can be accomplished but how little is required to accomplish something and horses are not messed up by a lack of firmness or to much firmness but by a lack of talent?
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Perhaps, but nobody is born with talent. :cool: Talent must be developed and earned over time and often comes at the cost of making some mistakes. The “light” horsemanship we strive for is usually pretty worthless in a field full of herd bound mates. In those circumstances a bit more firmness might be needed. :) “Light” horsemanship is also not found in the hands of inexperienced riders. Decent hands take a long time to develop, good hands are possessed by few.

I enjoyed the Vaquero clips you shared. (will folks notice the Merlin links?) Folks might like to comment on this thread in cafe as well. There’s a good Vaquero link included in my post.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174983

I’m fairly familiar with some of the Spanish riding history in my country. Be aware though that there is quite a difference in the riding history in the western US than in the East. The early eastern US riders were English and their methods, and uses for horses, were quite different from the west.

I don’t see how any of this relates to comparing IH or NH directly. I'm back off topic again. :) I was wondering if anybody has any thoughts on the concepts of “encouraging movement/using movement vs.“restricting/blocking” movement when training. IH's use of the fence panels seems contrary to me.


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
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levi1739 said:
I was wondering if anybody has any thoughts on the concepts of “encouraging movement/using movement vs.“restricting/blocking”
movement when training. IH's use of the fence seems contrary to me.


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
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Thought provoking as always :)

Encouraging movement-using movement is something I aim for with all my horses, e.g. asking for a lead change by opening my hand, pelvis and leg.

As opposed to Restricting/blocking movement- by pushing with my leg untill the horse "gives in" by moving off the leg.

Have to say that trying to "pen in" a horse to do anything its not accustom too just ruins the potential bond in my experience. Much better to have it quality halter trained so that it knows how to move its feet untill its comfortable to do what you're asking it to do.
 
Actually Chilli, I consider that fly to be “direct pressure” and the "concept" is the same as hitting with a stick. I much prefer “indirect pressure” whenever possible. I want my horse to communicate with me, not feel me. I know that horses are very aware of my breathing, and that’s where I begin to measure pressure. “Inhale and look” , “Exhale before response”.
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Ah but pressure is pressure and there is a case to argue the use of physical is easier to master, perhaps it’s not best to differentiate and just aim to use as little of the preferred type as necessary,but i think it's real important to realise comunication does not require pressure at all, some may choose to use pressure to comunicate but that does not mean it's essential.

Perhaps, but nobody is born with talent. Talent must be developed and earned over time and often comes at the cost of making some mistakes.
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Maybe but you don’t often hear of people who are often using a lot of pressure/force talk about how the aim is to use less, they generally talk about how it’s necessary and spend their time justifying it.

The “light” horsemanship we strive for is usually pretty worthless in a field full of herd bound mates. In those circumstances a bit more firmness might be needed.
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Have you ever seen the Tom Dorrance Benefit run by Ray Hunt? you might see a difference in how some of the guys get and work the unbroken horses from the pens, for some, how do you say ‘it get a lot western’ straight away while others mange to get by with the light horsemanship.

But as you say gone off topic.
 
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No, but since the thread is comparing specific IH approaches with other methods it would be interesting to compare what is happening :)
 
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