whats the difference between NH and IH?

[Yann]

I'll do my best to answer Levi1739's questions as far as they apply to an IH practitioner, within the limits of my own personal experience. In most cases there will be very little difference between what they do and a 'generic' NH person would (whoever they might be). As somebody already said the specific approach will also depend on the horse and the situation.

How would an IH associate teach a horse to pick up it’s feet?
What tools would they use?

Approach and retreat to get the horse happy to have their legs handled, and then start with a small ask and gradually build it up to full lifts in a calm and quiet fashion. If the horse is likely to kick then a hand on a stick or padded walking stick might be used in the early stages for safety reasons.

How would an IH associate catch a unhandled colt?

This one is a bit hard to answer as there are a lot of potential variables, but again the main method would be approach and retreat. One tactic I've seen used is to get the colt into a small enough enclosure to work with it meaningfully and then desensitise it first to the human touch and then a headcollar, after which it could be taught to lead and be caught. This was done as quietly and with as little stress as possible.

How would an IH associate introduce a rider to a horse?

If you're talking backing I don't think there would be any difference, the horse would be well handled and thoroughly desensitised before the rider got on fully. That might well (but not necessarily) include some join ups and some long lining, but it would be done over a period of time, not in 20 minutes.

How would an IH associate desensitize a scared race horse to the starting gate? What tools would they use?

No real knowledge of this one other than what I've seen Monty Roberts do on television, but that isn't necessarily how an IH associate would deal with the issue.

So how do you tell the difference between an IH associate and a natural horseman?

That would depend entirely on your definition of that term, which might mean different things to different people.

 

[levi1739]

Hmmm, I see some real differences in both the tools and methods. My experience with IH is limited but I've seen some of Monty Roberts stuff.


How about introducing clippers? Are the IH methods the same as NH? The tools?


From what I've seen there are some distinct differences between the different methods. To me these differences show a total different approach and understanding of the NH concept as I practice it.



Keep on, keepin on

Jack

 

[flickermum]

Well now Raingodz,

Havent you just made another good point.

The term Natural horsemanship was actually coined by Pat Parelli. That is now called Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

Intelligent Horsemanship is the Kelly Marks version, who was taught by Monty Roberts.

Basically, that is the point we are making I reckon. It does not matter what your name is or how much money or backing you have available to you for your brand of horsemanship, good horsemanship comes under many guises and the term 'Natural' is pretty ambiguous anyway considering as soon as you come into contact with a horse and put a headcollar on it, the 'natural' thing starts to disentegrate.

The natural term actually refers to using their natural behaviour and body language as a tool for communication rather than using all the gadgets and bits and bobs so readily available on the market, which most of the time, IMO, only cause to mask a problem not adress it.

 

[flickermum]

Hmmm, I see some real differences in both the tools and methods. My experience with IH is limited but I've seen some of Monty Roberts stuff.


How about introducing clippers? Are the IH methods the same as NH? The tools?


From what I've seen there are some distinct differences between the different methods. To me these differences show a total different approach and understanding of the NH concept as I practice it.



Keep on, keepin on

Jack

To be honest Jack, I don't really know all that much about IH. The bits I have seen just didn't go right in my mind for some reason. I reckon it all looked a bit too mechanical.

For example, I once saw him do a trailer load and it involved metal barriers and other people wielding these barriers and them being used to basically give the horse no other choice than to go on the trailer.

I didn't like it, so didn't really find out much more about it, it all seems a bit gadgety to me. And I don't like that headcollar he promotes. I have never really had a big sense of 'feel' of any sort from the guy, or from Kelly Marks.

 

[levi1739]

I missed a couple of posts (Yann - Raingodz) while typing but I'll reply in more detail later.

The things that Yann and Flickermum mention are more what I'm looking for. I hope folks will explore the differences some more. We all might learn something by exploring those differences a bit more closely.

Keep on keepin on

Jack

 

[Giveitago]

Can we also feel empowered to say no to a particular part of a persons training, as many do with items such as the buck stop, that we do not agree/or feel comfortable with.

And can we stop looking down our noses at the people who do not follow word by word, the instruction manuals and levels. (yes that's me- not a manual in sight)

I feel the whole NH thing has gone too far commercially and get the feeling that too many people are making too many bucks when their supposed ambition was to help all horses regardless of cash.

I like all the trainers. If i cant get the desired response from my horse, i might look for a PNH suggestion, if that fails I'll search for something else until I find a solution.

It's exactly the same teaching my kids, one is very quick to understand the way I describe things, the other looks at me as if I just came from Mars and I have to find a different approach.

 

[winterwood]

Hmmm, I see some real differences in both the tools and methods. My experience with IH is limited but I've seen some of Monty Roberts stuff.


How about introducing clippers? Are the IH methods the same as NH? The tools?


From what I've seen there are some distinct differences between the different methods. To me these differences show a total different approach and understanding of the NH concept as I practice it.



Keep on, keepin on

Jack

As far as IH is concerned. This would be broken down into stages. The first of which, would be to ensure the horse is happy to be with you, responds willingly when asked to move (ie Forwards/backwards) and doesn't come into your space uninvited. The horse may then be desensitized to a plastic bag on a stick, so you can rub it over his body. Once comfortable with this, an electric toothbrush can be introduced, whilst the bag is still being used. Then take the bag away leaving the toothbrush running, and stroking the horse with it. Following this a small set of cordless clippers can be introduced. At first away from the horse, and using advance and retreat get nearer. You can hold these against your arm with your hand on the horse, so he starts to get the feel of vibration. Work them down your arm nearer to the horses body until you can stroke the horse with the back of the clippers with them turned on. Obviously, this is done repeatedly over a few sessions until the horse is completely relaxed, and then you can move on to clipping.

Getting the horse to follow a pair of running clippers is also an effective add on to their training.

This is just a quick run through of what a session would consist of.


There is no such thing as a quick fix

 

[winterwood]

Back to the threads original question. Maybe this could be an answer


NH = Western

IH = English (or to be politically correct British)

 

[levi1739]

Yann, help me separate differences between IH and Monty Roberts. I assume they are pretty similar in philosophy?

build it up to full lifts in a calm and quiet fashion

In my experience it rarely happens like this. Shoot, I’ve got broke horses that sometimes won’t lift a foot willingly.

then a hand on a stick

I find “a hand on a stick” to be quite different. Are there other horseman who use a hand on a stick? In the demonstrations I’ve seen, Monty Roberts also uses a cattle panel as a squeeze chute along with the “hand on a stick”. Does IH include this method in their philosophy? Monty Roberts does.

One tactic I've seen used is to get the colt into a small enough enclosure

trailer load and it involved metal barriers and other people wielding these barriers and them being used to basically give the horse no other choice

Ahh, those “barriers”. The way they are used is another difference I notice. Does the IH philosophy include using barriers to help catch/restrain a horse? NH doesn't.

Winterwood, I’ve pondered that question often. Could it be?



Keep on, keeping on

Jack

 

[french]

N.H. and I.H.

The confusion caused to some by the term "Natural Horsemanship" is understandable when one realizes that "Natural Horsemanship" it is an oxymoron. "Natural Horsemanship" does not exist!
To try to put it into a nutshell - man and horse are not a natural combination, therefore anything they do together cannot be natural. We can only do our best to make up for this. The term 'Natural Horsemanship' was coined in an attempt to make us realize that horses should be treated more kindly and with more respect. And that this could be achieved if everything we did with horses we did in a more natural, thoughtful and intelligent way. The confusion starts because what one man thinks is cruel - another man will think is acceptable.
"Natural Horsemanship" ask's - Would I want someone to pull me around using 'that' ? -or - doing 'that'? - or eating 'un-naturaly'? -or being 'there'? - etc.etc.
How many people have ever put a bitt in their mouth and asked a friend to stand behind and pull the reins? Or how many have tied a piece of string to the tops of their arms and asked a friend to stand behind and pull the string? Try it, it hurts! How many people can explain anything about the 5 senses of the horse (because these are what drive the horse).
I personaly believe that 'communication' is the first essential kindness when training horses. If you can communicate with the horse you can tell the horse that you mean him no harm. The horse will tell you everything you want to know about what is suitable for him and what is not. If you cannot get a two way understanding going between yourself and the horse, then one or the other is going to suffer. Unfortunatley it is usualy the horse. If you cannot read your horse and know what it is saying with its "body language" how can you train a horse? or know when it is suffering or unhappy or stressed. Horses are constantly giving us this information with thier 'Body Language' I believe that communication is what 'Natural Horsemanship' is all about.
I.H. is "Intelligent Horsemanship". It is Kelly Marks's establishment for learning how to understand horses and therefore be kinder to the horse. It teaches many "Natural Horsemanship" methods.

 

[winterwood]

Levi
IH prefer not to confine a horse to work through a problem, but may well on occasion encourage an unhandled youngster into a safe enclosed area that can make advance retreat work easier and thus more effective. I personally have not seen Monty use any sort of chute set up when working on a horse with a foot handling problem in a demo. I have seen it used on one of his DVD's when working with a wild mustang.

IH will, if it helps the horse understand what is required, use pen panels to encourage a horse to load onto a horsebox as part of it's training programme. Once the horse has loaded via the use of panels, and found that being in the lorry/trailer is OK, they don't need to be used again. I think it's worth saying that it is the way in which the panels are used and the thinking/intent behind their use which is important

 

[KP nut]

Can we assume that horse training has turned a corner in terms of thinking it through rather than forcing it with a gadget?

Sadly not!! I wish it were otherwise but the majority of trainers/ RS instructors who live locally to me have a 'get the job done' attitude - often by using gadgets, force or punishment - not a 'solve the problem by thinking it through' attitude. Is it different elsewhere?

 

[Francis Burton]

Ahh, those “barriers”. The way they are used is another difference I notice. Does the IH philosophy include using barriers to help catch/restrain a horse? NH doesn't.

Well, there's metal barriers and there's mental barriers. I've seen PP using the latter, to give the horse the choice between more pressure and going on the trailer.

 

[Yann]

Yann, help me separate differences between IH and Monty Roberts. I assume they are pretty similar in philosophy?

My impression is that officially at least there isn't much, since one developed out of the other, but in practice a lot of the work I've seen done by associates, and even Kelly Marks, tends to be more sensitive and subtle, and much more to my personal liking. It is a broad church though as has already been suggested, and I don't know how different Monty Robert's work is outside the demo format, if at all.

In my experience it rarely happens like this. Shoot, I’ve got broke horses that sometimes won’t lift a foot willingly.

The horse isn't always 100% calm and quiet, but the handler should be and the horse should soon end up that way too, a training session should never turn into a bloodbath. Not having a pop, but I'm slightly surprised at the second statement.

I find “a hand on a stick” to be quite different.

Different from using say a carrot stick for the same purpose? It's just a more literal arm extension.

Ahh, those “barriers”. The way they are used is another difference I notice. Does the IH philosophy include using barriers to help catch/restrain a horse?

Not to catch a horse, that would be done with approach and retreat, walking down or putting to work depending on the circumstances. The example I quoted in my earlier reply was for a literally unhandled, ie feral horse or pony. As far as the use of panels in loading goes I don't think it's universal and all it does it make it easy to get the horse on in the early stages of the training. The other main difference with loading would be that the handler generally leads the horse in rather than driving it.

I have however seen Monty penning horses in at demos in order to do desensitisation work, but I don't like it at all.

 

[Chilli]

Don’t think NH is either Western or to make us realize that horses should be treated more kindly and with more respect, if we look at it historically it’s been around long before the people attributed to it’s invention were born.

" 'NATURAL' horsemanship cannot possibly take the direct road of sharp aids. For its nature lies in taking the innate state of the horse and changing it gradually, like the moon rises, climbing imperceptibly, and yet reaches its zenith in a relatively short time."

(OTTO DE LA CROIX, 1910)

Seems to me the main difference between many methods and within methods is the same, “the person working the horse.”

I think horse training on the whole has always been thought through even if it’s unpleasant for the horse, what scares me is the thought people think it is better to move away from training methods which use physical influences towards systems/methods which rely on mental pressure or manipulation purely because they don’t use any physical influence, imo you can do far more and easily do damage to a horse mentally than physically.

Problems don’t usually stem from the methods or equipment but from the person using them.

Just another one that maybe puts a different view on the reliance of pressure and release or escalating pressure as used by some NH practitioners but by no means all of them.

"One thing is for certain: where horses are pressured the most, the art of riding is the least at home."

(B.H.V. HOLLEUFFER, 1896)

 

[Yann]

what scares me is the thought people think it is better to move away from training methods which use physical influences towards systems/methods which rely on mental pressure or manipulation

I don't personally think we're discussing that here, for me the common denominator would be finding ways of working with the horse that keep stress to a minimum and make doing the 'right thing' as easy as possible for it. Positive reinforcement in the form of verbal praise, giving the horse a scratch or head rub or a rest is an integral part of this approach from what I've seen and read, and some practitioners do take that a step further and actually integrate some clicker training into what they do.

I'm not sure how much horses actually differentiate between physical and mental pressure anyway, they can easily become nervous, wary or traumatized by excessive and inappropriate use of purely physical stimuli.

Just another one that maybe puts a different view on the reliance of pressure and release or escalating pressure as used by some NH practitioners but by no means all of them.

I don't think those two things are necessarily the same either, it's possible to be incredibly subtle with pressure and release, but I doubt many people actually get as good at it as the average horse

 

[old_woman]

imo you can do far more and easily do damage to a horse mentally than physically.

Wise, wise words, Chilli. I would also add that mental wounds - although not easily visible and thus not great generators of sympathy or understanding in general - are almost always far more recalcitrant to the healing process than their physical counterparts, and leave deeper, more painful scars.

 

[Yann]

I don't think the numerous horses that have been helped to overcome various issues by IH associates are mentally wounded in any way, mine certainly isn't

 

[Wally]

Problems don’t usually stem from the methods or equipment but from the person using them

Nail hit firmly on the head....and IME there are a lot of folk out there who could read every book and watch every DVD on the subject but the problems will still come from within.

 

[Julz]

well, i dont know much about Parelli (other than seen her picture, which shows her standing next to a horse in the canine sit position )

But some of the IH methods I have used on my cob, have been a real blessing, to sort out his manners or lack of them... to an understanding we now both have for each other, and are now more relaxed with each other.

surely the most important factor of horse-ownership is to have a relaxed understanding of each other and not a constant battle of wills.... It does not matter what way you two end up having a good partnership together so long as it didnt involve abuse of any sort. IH or NH, doesnt not promote cruetly or abuse of any sort, which can only be a good thing, Yes? No?

As for the buckstop, as already said, it is more a Monty thing, which has taken a backseat in Kelly's run of the teaching.