BHS says ok to whip & spur horses?!

[Pale Moon]

its rather like the smacking argument with children. A smack, as in a slap with an open hand, on a child's bottom or hand, is a completely different kettle of fish from taking off your belt and beating a child black and blue with the buckle end.

If my horse goes to run out at a SJing comp, and i give her a smack with my whip, and then she sorts herself out and jumps as she has been taught to do, there's nothing wrong with that. If I sit there, in the middle of the ring and wallop her over and over and over again before I even represent her, then that's abuse (and i ought to be eliminated, if the judges are on the ball).

If the governing bodies say that no-one is allowed to use a whip under any circumstances, then it doesnt give the judges any room for personal repsonsibility. what about the rider with a slightly dodgy right leg, who needs the whip to back it up? What about my horse who ALWAYS ducks out to the left, which can be avoided if I simply hold my whip in my left hand?

Brilliantly and succinctly put, Gruntfuttock.

 

[Pale Moon]

i dont agree with using whips or spurs. if you have a good rapport with the horse you shouldnt need to use them. a kind word or a gentle pat works wonders. the horse is all to often expected to do things that he/ she has the sense to know is too much for them to do, or it is causing them discomfort or pain. unfortuneately, they are all too often expected to do more and more, irregardless.

Really??? You must come and ride my horse then, without holding a whip!

I very rarely have to use it, but he knows with absolute certainty if I don't carry one, and tries to take the p**s big time.

 

[puzzles]

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this. They may not understand the ideea that they are being punished because they have done something that we don't want them to do, but they do understand that certain behaviours will cause a lack of fitness. If every time they do something "wrong" they get a negative response then they will learn soon enough not to do it as they will want to ensure they have an optimum fitness. It may even get to the point where not to perform a certain behaviour is innate. So while they may not understand our concept of punishment, the point does actually get across.


Why do all the NH people think that spurs and whips are used to beat the s**t out of horses. You have to understand a gadget properly before you put it down.

It is argued that they do not associate the "punishment" with the behaviour. Instead, they just think that their rider has caused them pain with no reason. Also, this punishment is often mis-timed and given in anger or frustration. Punishment does not teach the horse how the rider wants him/her to behave, it only represses behaviour & demotivates the horse. It discourages a harmonious, trusting relationship with the rider and also dents the horse's confidence if he/she is not given enough positive repsonses from the rider. People can degrade this mindset as much as they like, but is entirely possible that it is true. Whips can have a valuable place when used wisely and minimally, but they don't have to! They aren't the be-all and end-all. If a rider can't ride without having to use or carry a whip, then that suggests some sort of mis-training with a whip at some point during the horse's life because, to me, they shouldn't develop in their training so that they are dependent on one. I don't think they should be banned, but I personally am particularly selective about what I see as acceptable & unacceptable uses olf the whip, and indeed spurs too.

x

 

[BlueWicked]

Really? So in a potentially dangerous situation, the best option is to hit the horse, which could shock or confuse it, or cause it pain which thus discourages thinking & instead encourages the horse simply to react instinctively, such as by spooking or walking backwards, sideways etc. A few calming words and comforting hand on the neck, in my eyes, is more likely to encourage a horse to comply with your wishes & remain calm than anything a whip or spur could ever achieve.
x

a smack does not shock or confuse my horse. it says I am the leader and do as you are told. i have seriously never heard such fluffy rubbish in all my born days perhaps spending some time living with a herd would be an interesting exercise for all the people who think along these lines... and try telling the herd leader that instead of nipping/biting/kicking/barging the others to ascert dominanace and sometimes move the herd out of the way of danger, that a gentle nuzzle and discussion would suffice

What absolute rubbish

The BHS has probably done more for horse welfare in the country than any of the natural horsemanship schools of thought. Just think how far we have come, certainly in the 45 years I have been involved with horses.

And no I'm not anti NH methods, just anti those practitioners who think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Its threads like these that keep me well away from the NH section of this forum

No method is wrong if it works and does not cause the horse suffering. I douubt if anyone one here would advocate beating an animal.

here here

 

[L34NN3]

Apparently they do not associate the "punishment" with the behaviour. Instead, they just think that their rider has caused them pain with no reason.

I disagree with this. If a horse has been taught through positive reinforcement what the correct behaviour is, and is praised each time the correct behaviour is dispayed, it will become more frequent. If a behaviour is asked for but not given then negative reinforcment can be used to stop this behaviour. When the correct behaviour is displayed then praise can then be resumed. We can teach the horse that it is easier to do it the way we want than to do what they want

 

[~*sugarlump*~]

a smack does not shock or confuse my horse. it says I am the leader and do as you are told. i have seriously never heard such fluffy rubbish in all my born days perhaps spending some time living with a herd would be an interesting exercise for all the people who think along these lines... and try telling the herd leader that instead of nipping/biting/kicking/barging the others to ascert dominanace and sometimes move the herd out of the way of danger, that a gentle nuzzle and discussion would suffice

Ditto.
A small smack with a crop is nothing compared to what some wild (or domestic for that matter) horses do to establish control.
I see it that abit of dominance is needed in order to establish a safe envoronment for both parties. In the wild and in the school. TBH believeing that all problems can be solved by just a a pat and a few nice words is wishful thinking.

 

[sarahandbronson]

Under current rules - Harry Meade could have at Burghley, whipped his horse whilst it was stranded on the fence and whilst it was on the ground - it wasnt performing was it? -how unbelievable is that - OF COURSE I KNOW HE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT!!: But the FACT IS....he/we could... this is just one reason why I think the rule must be changed.

Read a BE rulebook - such action would have been classed as excessive.
Therefore, not allowed.

Also, Matthew Wright left spur marks on his horse at Osberton after the dressage phase. He was eliminated and given a yellow card for this offence, which I believe could lead to him being suspended (?) an action which I think should be introduced at the lower levels of affiliated competitions (BE, BD, BSJA etc.) to promote better riding and to encourage only using artificial aids in the correct manner.

 

[sarahandbronson]

i am saying that you should have done enough ground work and preparation to not need to use whips and spurs. you should have a parnership with your horse whereby he wants to please you and trusts in your decisions. therefore if he (or she) is baulking or sluggish it is really down to you the rider.

Four years of trying without spurs, higest dressage mark was 62%, Bronson was lazy, backed off and fell in and out during his transitions. A lot of marks were more around 52%.
First test with spurs, 68.6%. After that he has continues to score in the sixties. He feels so much better with that little bit more 'go' in him, I can ride in a softer and more relaxed way (with a better position and balance) and therefore surely it is better for him? I only ride him in spurs for dressage tests and the odd schooling session as I don't want him to rely on them. They have rubber balls on the ends, I have a pretty secure lower leg, and have never left a mark on him.

Is it not possible to have a partnership with a horse and for them still to be lazy To say that Bronson doesn't trust me is very insulting - to cross country school over fences up to BE novice (without a whip or spurs, I don't use them when jumping, usually carry a whip, but hardly ever need to use it) I'd say you need to have a little faith in your horse, and vica versa

 

[eml]

When I teach (especially kids) I tell them to whisper (ie squeeze) talk louder (nudge) and then shout (tap with crop). I remove crops from those who use them incorrectly

I think this applies at all levels of riding.

Oh and I use spurs ( only allow very good clients to) to refine my aids.

Is this what you mean as 'BHS says OK to whip and spur horses' ??

 

[skips and soda]

Four years of trying without spurs, higest dressage mark was 62%, Bronson was lazy, backed off and fell in and out during his transitions. A lot of marks were more around 52%.
First test with spurs, 68.6%. After that he has continues to score in the sixties. He feels so much better with that little bit more 'go' in him, I can ride in a softer and more relaxed way (with a better position and balance) and therefore surely it is better for him? I only ride him in spurs for dressage tests and the odd schooling session as I don't want him to rely on them. They have rubber balls on the ends, I have a pretty secure lower leg, and have never left a mark on him.

Is it not possible to have a partnership with a horse and for them still to be lazy To say that Bronson doesn't trust me is very insulting - to cross country school over fences up to BE novice (without a whip or spurs, I don't use them when jumping, usually carry a whip, but hardly ever need to use it) I'd say you need to have a little faith in your horse, and vica versa

Agree with this.

I don't agree with either whip or spurs used in an abusive manner (I've seen people at all levels beasting their horses with whips and spurs, that's appalling), as a refinement/gentle reminder/correction they are an entirely different thing.

I ride both my boys holding a whip, I ride Soda in spurs for working in the arena. He goes a million times better with them, and I suspect it is much more comfortable for him because I am not constantly having to kick him on and only need a gentle nudge. His dressage scores since I've worn them are, like sarahandbronson's, a testament to the fact that he goes much better when I'm wearing them!

I use spurs with a rounded tip and have also never ever left a mark on him. He can still be ridden perfectly well without spurs, I hack him, XC him (usually, unless he's backing off fences) and hunt him without spurs. I also occasionally school him without them. They've not done any damage but they have helped us with our schooling and improved our overall work.

 

[posie]

When I teach (especially kids) I tell them to whisper (ie squeeze) talk louder (nudge) and then shout (tap with crop). I remove crops from those who use them incorrectly

I think this applies at all levels of riding.

Oh and I use spurs ( only allow very good clients to) to refine my aids.

this is exactly how i use my aids - although my instructor says:
ask, tell, demand

if i hadn't used the whip i'd be a sweating red exhausted lump and my horse would still not be working off the leg - as it is i can now generally only ask - with the occasional tell - becuase i've backed up my aids with the odd demand/whip so she dosen't ignore me.

i'll also use whip and/or spurs if a horse is backing off a big solid fence - sorry - but i will ride into one of them like my life depends on it - cos it does really!