What are the differences between Crabbet, Russian, Egyptian, Spanish etc? Can you generally tell just by looking at them?
Arab types
- Thread starter Stassy
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Sometimes! However lots of Egyptian, Russian and Spanish date back to Crabbet-bred stock so it is not always that straightforward - but to a certain extent certain countries (the UK included) have bred for a 'type' or fixed characteristics.
For example, a lot of the Polish lines (typied by Michael Harris at Combe Farm as he has line bred to Argos) are smaller, well conformed deep bodied types. A lot of Crabbets are stockier, straighter profiled with good bone, Egyptians are noted for their refined heads and finer limbs and Spanish for their beautiful eye...
These are of course sweeping generalisations....
And what happens when you get a mix of all types as in 'domestic' Arabians?
I have a weakness for the Bahraini-bred Arabs....
For example, a lot of the Polish lines (typied by Michael Harris at Combe Farm as he has line bred to Argos) are smaller, well conformed deep bodied types. A lot of Crabbets are stockier, straighter profiled with good bone, Egyptians are noted for their refined heads and finer limbs and Spanish for their beautiful eye...
These are of course sweeping generalisations....
And what happens when you get a mix of all types as in 'domestic' Arabians?
I have a weakness for the Bahraini-bred Arabs....
Have a look at a book called Arabian Exodus - by Margaret Greely - has pics in there that show different continents and their types, also not a bad read on arabian pedigrees.
I must be an Egyptian fan as that is the type I think of when thinking of an Arabian.
I imgaine they are the 'classical' Arab but not necessarily the desert type Arab, is that right?
I imgaine they are the 'classical' Arab but not necessarily the desert type Arab, is that right?
Egyptians are nice, but unfortunately tend to have a rather unattractive 'parrot' mouth in my eyes.
This stallion, Simeon Sadik is a clear example of this. He's straight Egyptian and reasonably decorated as far as I can tell, but check out that muzzle!
You'll find what you think of as a 'classic' arab within any of the types to be honest - the differences are often subtle, and some of each type will be 'exemplary' examples of the arabian whilst others will be less so. I'm a big fan of the crabbet arabians - the pure breds can often be less 'typey', but the outcrosses are often gorgeous. This stallion, Padron is about 50% Crabbet. He is one of the leading sires America has ever had, and his progeny have been extremely successful as well.
He's 30 years old in that picture (hence the hollows above his eyes and slight greying), and it was one of the last ones taken before his death. But just look at him!
You can't tell from this picture, but Padron has a perfectly shaped muzzle, unlike Simeon Sadik. I'll post a link if anyone wants to see it.
Personally though, my favourites are the Russian arabs. They have huge movement, and the Tersk stud has bred some of the most beautiful horses I've ever seen. One of the mares they exported to America was Nariadnaia, and she is famed as the most beautiful russian mare ever to be exported to the US. Interestingly, though she is Russian bred she does actually have some egyptian bloodlines through her sire Aswan. She has wonderful eyes, beautiful movement and is heavier in the body than you often see in modern arabs. I really, really like this horse. I think she'd have been great under saddle or for whatever you wanted to do with her. The only fault I can find with her is the shape of her muzzle, but she has the most arresting eyes I've ever seen. All the google results I've found for her refer to the 'beautiful' Nariadnaia:
She is most famed for her son Nariadni, who was almost pure Russian and a very very lovely chap:
What I've found is that most of the nicest arabs have a mixture of different 'types', and have recieved the best from all sides
.My girl is probably around 75% crabbet and 25% Russian. There is a little bit of Egyptian in her as well. She wasn't bred for showing and so is less refined than those you'll see above, but she is what would be called a 'useful' type. As in, she is a good riding horse and gentle on the ground. Not off her rocker from too much hard feed like some of the ones you'll see in the show ring. She's also smaller (14.3hh) than a lot of the modern showing arabs, who are being bred taller and taller (originally 14 to 15hh was the norm).
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I see what you mean about the muzzle!
Now that I've seen pictures I quite like the look of the ones with Crabbet bloodlines. In those pictures Nariadnaia is pretty but not stunning I prefer your grey mare and Pedilia's chestnut mare.
Now that I've seen pictures I quite like the look of the ones with Crabbet bloodlines. In those pictures Nariadnaia is pretty but not stunning I prefer your grey mare and Pedilia's chestnut mare.
I know exactly what you mean about Nariadnaia. I think she has wonderful conformation - better than a lot of arabs, but Padron is far more the more stunning of the two (unless you look at Nariadnaia's eyes. She just looks so sweet and kind). I reckon she'd have made an excellent riding horse though from her comformation. I'm a big Padron fan, and if you look at the shape of his face it is almost perfect for an arab:
http://public.fotki.com/Prosmirage/padron-photos/padronhead-vi.html
Unfortunately, because he was kept in 'American' showing condition, in a lot of pictures you find of him he is rather overly lean and muscley.
This is a great almost 100% crabbet stallion, Silvern Risalm:
He's been incredibly successful under saddle, which is of course nice to see. Another nice stallion who is 72% crabbet is Aazari (he is a grandson of Camargue, who is a big name in the arab world):
Of the lot though, I'd rather have owned Nariadnaia, as you can probably tell! She is not the most classically araby, but she was by all accounts a cracking mare.
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You can really see the difference in conformation between Silvern Risalm and Padron. When I was looking up Padron I came across his grandson Magnum Psyche who is even more exaggerated. Its a shame that look is considered beautiful.
I agree completely. The problem is, Magnum Psyche is actually a very handsome stallion, but he is produced in a way that is not very attractive at all! There is a bit of a thing in the arab world where showing horses are overfed as youngsters so that they mature faster. This causes all sorts of problems with the legs.
This picture is fantastic to see the difference between Magnum Psyche and Padron (Padron is on the right);
This is Magnum Psyche again:
It seems to me that people looked at Padron, and wanted their foal to have everything that he had but MORE. But from this picture, yes Magnum Psyche looks fancier, but Padron looks so much more like a HORSE! I'm going to research Magnum Psyche's dam, because his sire, Padron's Psyche, was out of a russian mare and by Padron, which would give him quite a high percentage of russian blood than Magnum. He's far nicer than Magnum Psyche:
*Edited to say: I've just been on google. Turn's out that Magnum's dam, A Fancy Miracle, is straight Spanish. She looks more like her son. Can't say I'm impressed from the picture I found (she's pretty, but not my type):
My friend and I used to get one of the Arabian magazines on subscription, and one of my favourite adverts for a stallion at stud was accompanied by this picture:
This is R Magic, a former British National Champion. I love how natural this picture is, and how simply he is presented. Unfortunately I don't know whether he is Crabbet/Russian etc.
** I should warn everyone now, I could go on about this forever, so if you want me to stop, just say!
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In my experience it is Spanish Arabs that are the most strange and oddly bred of the lot. Magnum Physce I don't find attractive atall and I adore Arabs, he looks rather unnatural to me and I have seen pictures of him where he isn't presented in a showy manner and he still isn't normal looking then. The parrot mouth isn't confined to one type however as I'm afraid it's a huge trend in Spanish Arabs especially those descended from Padron.
Good example is AV Montoya:
I have an SE (straight egyptian) filly and while alot of them are very typey due to odd breeding a good SE arab doesn't have a parrot mouth.
SE are very nice type of Arab and tend to has the smallest muzzles and are breathtakingly beautiful. To me they are back to the true Bedouin Arabs.
A few examples of good SE stallions/horses
Possibly the most famous SE arabs El Shaklan, as an example he is what Padron is to Spanish breeding, except Egyptian.
Lilly sire, Benito
Even all oiled up and showy his muzzle isn't especially parroty, he isn't extremely bred like the stallion Hashrouge posted earlier and he is SE and has won and been placed highly in international competitions.
My filly was bred for showing and has the typical SE features, small muzzle, refined face.
She is however extremely hardy, surefooted, adaptable, fast and elegant.
In the winter, people have actually told me she isn't purebred as she has a thicker coat than most some cobs.
It does quite upset me when people overlook SE arabs as spindly, show horses only, they are far more than that, and as well as doing well inhand also excel at endurance.
Bearing in mind she is a youngster there is nothing spindly about Lilly.
Good example is AV Montoya:
I have an SE (straight egyptian) filly and while alot of them are very typey due to odd breeding a good SE arab doesn't have a parrot mouth.
SE are very nice type of Arab and tend to has the smallest muzzles and are breathtakingly beautiful. To me they are back to the true Bedouin Arabs.
A few examples of good SE stallions/horses
Possibly the most famous SE arabs El Shaklan, as an example he is what Padron is to Spanish breeding, except Egyptian.
Lilly sire, Benito
Even all oiled up and showy his muzzle isn't especially parroty, he isn't extremely bred like the stallion Hashrouge posted earlier and he is SE and has won and been placed highly in international competitions.
My filly was bred for showing and has the typical SE features, small muzzle, refined face.
She is however extremely hardy, surefooted, adaptable, fast and elegant.
In the winter, people have actually told me she isn't purebred as she has a thicker coat than most some cobs.
It does quite upset me when people overlook SE arabs as spindly, show horses only, they are far more than that, and as well as doing well inhand also excel at endurance.
Bearing in mind she is a youngster there is nothing spindly about Lilly.
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Asima my dear, I think you need to pop your reading glasses on - you seem to have Padron's bloodlines confused. He is at least 50% crabbet, and most of the rest of his bloodlines are Russian. I'm not sure why you're suggesting that he is a representative of the 'Spanish' arabian? I haven't googled the rest of AV Montoya's pedigree, but I can tell you that it is A Fancy Miracle (see my above post) who provides the Spanish pedigree of Magnum Psyche - not Padron or Padrons Psyche. Interestingly, AV Montoya is as closely related to El Shaklan as he is to Padron. If you're gonna make digs about one of my favourite arab stallions, make sure you got the info right
Also, re the parrot mouths - I wasn't having a go at the Egyptian arabs, just pointing it out as something that I have seen more of in the Egyptians than in the others!
Just a point of interest, Montoya is an arab I haven't seen before, and other than the parrot mouth (I don't think it is as severe as Simeon Sadik's, and Montoya has a nicer shaped chin which lessons the effect) he's actually rather nice:
http://www.avmontoya.com/#/gallery/4529443344
I'm not anti-Egyptian, so I hope you haven't gotten that impression! In fact, I've just spent half the afternoon trying to find a picture of Pasha Farid, a straight Egyptian stallion I'm rather fond of:
Not the best picture, but the only one I could find. He is what I see when I imagine the black stallion from the Walter Farley books.
Anyway, something that might interest people:
Benito:
Padron:
http://public.fotki.com/Prosmirage/padron-photos/padron2-vi.html
These are two stallions I consider to be very nice examples of the arab, as well as of their respective type, because from these pictures I find it hard to identify that they ARE different types. That was what Ambatt was referring to when she said 'sometimes' you can tell. But sometimes you can't! (Unless you're an expert I guess).
In my googling I've also found this rather nice stallion. He appears to be used for western riding, and I have no idea what type he is, I just think he's lovely! He's been saddled with the unfortunate name of Sir Spattson, but given he's black with four white socks I'll forgive him anything:
Lily has a very beautiful face btw - that is what you want in an egyptian arab. Her face is delicate, but gentle, with large eyes. Definitely a good example
- you seem to have Padron's bloodlines confused. He is at least 50% crabbet, and most of the rest of his bloodlines are Russian. I'm not sure why you're suggesting that he is a representative of the 'Spanish' arabian? I haven't googled the rest of AV Montoya's pedigree, but I can tell you that it is A Fancy Miracle (see my above post) who provides the Spanish pedigree of Magnum Psyche - not Padron or Padrons Psyche. Interestingly, AV Montoya is as closely related to El Shaklan as he is to Padron. If you're gonna make digs about one of my favourite arab stallions, make sure you got the info right Also, re the parrot mouths - I wasn't having a go at the Egyptian arabs, just pointing it out as something that I have seen more of in the Egyptians than in the others!
Just a point of interest, Montoya is an arab I haven't seen before, and other than the parrot mouth (I don't think it is as severe as Simeon Sadik's, and Montoya has a nicer shaped chin which lessons the effect) he's actually rather nice:
http://www.avmontoya.com/#/gallery/4529443344
I'm not anti-Egyptian, so I hope you haven't gotten that impression! In fact, I've just spent half the afternoon trying to find a picture of Pasha Farid, a straight Egyptian stallion I'm rather fond of:
Not the best picture, but the only one I could find. He is what I see when I imagine the black stallion from the Walter Farley books.
Anyway, something that might interest people:
Benito:
Padron:
http://public.fotki.com/Prosmirage/padron-photos/padron2-vi.html
These are two stallions I consider to be very nice examples of the arab, as well as of their respective type, because from these pictures I find it hard to identify that they ARE different types. That was what Ambatt was referring to when she said 'sometimes' you can tell. But sometimes you can't! (Unless you're an expert I guess).
In my googling I've also found this rather nice stallion. He appears to be used for western riding, and I have no idea what type he is, I just think he's lovely! He's been saddled with the unfortunate name of Sir Spattson, but given he's black with four white socks I'll forgive him anything:
Lily has a very beautiful face btw - that is what you want in an egyptian arab. Her face is delicate, but gentle, with large eyes. Definitely a good example
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Very true about Padron, was only using him as the most championed Spanish Arabs are descendent's of Magnum Physce , who is of course descended from Padron.
Didn't really do my research on AV Montoya mostly heard about how he is descended from Padron, Magnum etc. So just stuck him on there, I was running late so excuse my lack of research. But I could find you plenty of Spanish Arabs with similar noses.
Though in all fairness I won't really judge an Arab wearing an in hand halter or bridle because they do distort their faces somewhat. And most people will do their level best to get horses to pull an odd face when showing, which make their noses look odd.
Didn't really do my research on AV Montoya
mostly heard about how he is descended from Padron, Magnum etc. So just stuck him on there, I was running late so excuse my lack of research. But I could find you plenty of Spanish Arabs with similar noses. Though in all fairness I won't really judge an Arab wearing an in hand halter or bridle because they do distort their faces somewhat. And most people will do their level best to get horses to pull an odd face when showing, which make their noses look odd.
I gotta say Magnum Psyche is a peculiar looking boy. You're right I think to criticise the Spanish blood that he has, because his sire Padrons Pysche is beautiful, so I'm guessing his odd looks come from the Spanish side. But that is through his damline, not his sire line.
True, I'm afraid I rather dislike him as far as Arabs go, he's the epitome of the new trend for odd typey Arabs, mainly for showing and the breed is getting ridiculed terribly for it, which quite upsets me as Arabs are amazing so adaptable and diverse, people are forgetting the old use for them as the Bedouin war horses and focusing more on this image.
I spose if he was a model horse he'd be gorgeous but there's something unnatural about him, he's so extreme, his neck, face. He doesn't look real. Can't quite put my finger on it, he's so perfect it's unattractive, unnatural.
I spose if he was a model horse he'd be gorgeous but there's something unnatural about him, he's so extreme, his neck, face. He doesn't look real. Can't quite put my finger on it, he's so perfect it's unattractive, unnatural.
I know what you mean - he hardly looks real! I'm also curious, because I can't find ANY pictures of him moving......maybe he ISN'T real . Seriously though, if anyone can find pics of Magnum Psyche moving, I'd love to see his trot. I'd also like to know how big he is....looks tall for an arab.
I'd rather have my girl anyday tbh, and I'll now confess (in case anyone wondered why I'm so obsessed with Padron that she is, like Magnum Psyche, one of his many grandchildren ). She's much nicer than her chesnut beanpole of a cousin though, even if she hasn't won gazillions of prizes :
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. Seriously though, if anyone can find pics of Magnum Psyche moving, I'd love to see his trot. I'd also like to know how big he is....looks tall for an arab.I'd rather have my girl anyday tbh, and I'll now confess (in case anyone wondered why I'm so obsessed with Padron
that she is, like Magnum Psyche, one of his many grandchildren ). She's much nicer than her chesnut beanpole of a cousin though, even if she hasn't won gazillions of prizes :
I know what you mean - he hardly looks real! I'm also curious, because I can't find ANY pictures of him moving......maybe he ISN'T real
...
Theres this video of magnum Psyche:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mOv-MAqeTXc
It shows some trotting footage..
I'm personally not in general an arab fan, but a few arabs I find simply stunning. HashRogue and Asima you both have lovely horses.
I prefer them when they have that dished face but not to the extreme you see in the modern show examples.
ETA: Everyone whos posted their arabs on this thread have beautiful horses actually.
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