Hmm. Something just clicked in my brain when I read that, regarding my own training issues with Splash. Thanks
Just clarify something for me...
- Thread starter EquiPortal
- Start date
Hmm. Something just clicked in my brain when I read that, regarding my own training issues with Splash. Thanks
Stick when I am riding is to back up my leg which I have always thought was the point???
And on the ground to make sure horse respects personal space and to back up voice aids as again was always the point???
That clarify that for you????
Nikki xxxx
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I would agree with you, but I've witnessed work with horses by NH practitioners that left the horse scared of them, hence my comment. At no stage did that practitioner 'lose it' with the horse, but they were far too heavy handed.
A couple of weeks ago one of the women on our yard - who shares and horse and pony with her daughter - started putting a long rope and rope halter on her horse. When I enquired about her starting to do some NH (I was wary - this women acts aggressively towards her horses every day in that she will literally try to drag a horse if he won't move, shouts at them and whacks them hard with headcollars and lead ropes when they're in the way or aren't obeying her) she claimes that a NH man (I can't remember his name) who said that Parelli and MR were just comercialised (fair point to a degree) rubbish came over to do some groundwokrk with her horse, who was 'bargey' and 'dominant' (IMO it was all her doing, but I couldn't well say that to her). Just when I was beginning to think that I may have begun an alliance with this woman, she then went on to say that the man said he has to be cruel to be kind ... in what way? He behaved very aggressively and forcefully with the horse to get him to obey him (and I observed that it seemed to not have made a difference, believe it or not ... ) including hitting him and the likes. Hmph. So much for NH.
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I would agree with you, but I've witnessed work with horses by NH practitioners that left the horse scared of them, hence my comment. At no stage did that practitioner 'lose it' with the horse, but they were far too heavy handed.
A couple of weeks ago one of the women on our yard - who shares and horse and pony with her daughter - started putting a long rope and rope halter on her horse. When I enquired about her starting to do some NH (I was wary - this women acts aggressively towards her horses every day in that she will literally try to drag a horse if he won't move, shouts at them and whacks them hard with headcollars and lead ropes when they're in the way or aren't obeying her) she claimes that a NH man (I can't remember his name) who said that Parelli and MR were just comercialised (fair point to a degree) rubbish came over to do some groundwokrk with her horse, who was 'bargey' and 'dominant' (IMO it was all her doing, but I couldn't well say that to her). Just when I was beginning to think that I may have begun an alliance with this woman, she then went on to say that the man said he has to be cruel to be kind ... in what way? He behaved very aggressively and forcefully with the horse to get him to obey him (and I observed that it seemed to not have made a difference, believe it or not ... ) including hitting him and the likes. Hmph. So much for NH.
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AengusOg: I tried to open the link you gave, but couldn't see any video.
I saw one girl at the yard who was doing NH and her horse just doesn't get it (according to her). She wanted her horse to move forwards and he didn't move, then she kicked him harder and harder and eventually did a pony club kick. I heard an echo from the horse's lungs and a horse changed his breathing. Then he moved. What is your opinion on that? Was it neccessary? Was it not aggressive? She did give a horse a chance to move before a pony club kick, but she didn't give him any motivation to move. That's why I get really upset when people justify this saying that he has been given a chance.
If anyone came to NEC last weekend, Linda said that you should only squeeze your horse with your legs as hard as you can squeeze your eyeball with your finger. And I would love to see how would some people would handle a pony club kick in their eye!
I saw one girl at the yard who was doing NH and her horse just doesn't get it (according to her). She wanted her horse to move forwards and he didn't move, then she kicked him harder and harder and eventually did a pony club kick. I heard an echo from the horse's lungs and a horse changed his breathing. Then he moved. What is your opinion on that? Was it neccessary? Was it not aggressive? She did give a horse a chance to move before a pony club kick, but she didn't give him any motivation to move. That's why I get really upset when people justify this saying that he has been given a chance.
If anyone came to NEC last weekend, Linda said that you should only squeeze your horse with your legs as hard as you can squeeze your eyeball with your finger. And I would love to see how would some people would handle a pony club kick in their eye!
I have to say, that I dont care if someone says 'Im doing NH' - if they are kicking the begeezers out of their horse - that isnt what they are doing!
I can see that some people may get confused about what a 'phase 4' or similar type of request is all about - its back to that all important issue to assertion rather than aggresion - its about letting the horse know this is what you want and you expect him to do it, without any anger or venting - i.e an assertive squeeze rather than a kick.
If you need to be kicking that hard, you lost it some time ago and need to go back to basics with your horse so he understands what you are asking. If you cant communicate with your horse, you shouldnt be on his back.
I can see that some people may get confused about what a 'phase 4' or similar type of request is all about - its back to that all important issue to assertion rather than aggresion - its about letting the horse know this is what you want and you expect him to do it, without any anger or venting - i.e an assertive squeeze rather than a kick.
If you need to be kicking that hard, you lost it some time ago and need to go back to basics with your horse so he understands what you are asking. If you cant communicate with your horse, you shouldnt be on his back.
A
AengusOg
Guest
Sorry, it seems the author has removed the video from youtube, which is unfortunate as it showed a woman supposedly emulating Clinton Anderson's techniques (although I don't know if Anderson would agree), and, in my opinion, demonstrating some very aggressive behaviour toward her horse.
As for the girl on your yard and her methods..........I don't condone or tolerate any aggression or violence toward horses, under any circumstances.
Horses will always prefer to take the easy option if one is offered to them.
In those circumstances I'd be inclined to give the horse a choice between something uncomfortable, such as being ridden in tight circles, and the comfortable option of being quietly ridden forward. Then he could decide for himself.
I agree with a lot of the points in this thread,
A good horse trainer must have control of him/herself if they are to achieve control of their horse. Anyone who is guilty of aggression toward horses should perhaps consider snails as pets.[/QUOTE said:it is a very opinionated topic, but there again I think the horse world is very opinionated and thats because people have passion for horses.
There have been a few comments about the clarification of 'agression' let me just explain the level of agression the lady I rode for used with her horses.
(We can call her a lady for now but I'm not sure its accurate)
This lady has a large herd of horses and I know that she loves them to bits, she rescues quite a few from gypsies, markets etc.
However, I wouldn't ride / handle horses as she wanted me to. She used to tell me off for being too soft with the horses, here's some examples of her 'training' methods:
Horse puts head up when putting bridle on: solution = smack horse on head with bridle. (I worked with this horse for just two weeks and eventually it trusted me and put its head down to have the bridle on - just though patience, calmness and reward - she came along and tacked her up once after that and the poor horse was back to square one again.)
Do you get the picture?Do you see why I had to leave? I loved the horse I was riding to bits, but if I said anything about the way she handled her horses, she exploded on me and I was worried that I wouldn't see the horse again. The horse I rode wasn't completely sound he wasn't forward going and I was quite happy to just use leg and encouragement with my seat and voice, he wasn't 100% afterall. But I used to get that 'lady' shouting at me for not hitting the horse with the whip. I am quite happy to flick the horse on the bum to wake him up and tell him to listen to my aids but she wanted me to smack hard, to HURT the horse - no can do I'm afraid
Even though I have had to now stop riding because I left (until I buy a horse), I feel much better because I used to come home stressed and upset and horses should be enjoyable! She did all of these 'agressive' actions when SHE LOST HER TEMPER - SHE was bullying the horses because she couldn't keep her cool. Pathetic.
I went to see Parelli at the weekend at the NEC
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I'm sure your right, but being a 'practitioner' doesn't make you an expert in any field! I have seen some very scared horses in the hands of traditional 'practitioners' too! Everyone gets it wrong to varying degrees, that's a fact of life and not at all restricted to any one discipline
EquiPortal, I know exactly how you feel about riding horses for that lady and why you left. About 6 years ago I used to ride for a famous showjumper (not in the UK), who won almost every competition he entered, won a national cup, jumped in FEI cup and won or was palced. Sounds like a good man? Well he wasn't. Here are some of his brilliant ideas:
If a horse stops in front of the jump when a student is jumping, he will ask you to whip the horse. If you don't whip him hard enough, he will come and do it himself. If it is still not hard enough, he will take A POLE and throw it on the horse! The idea behind this: If he doesn't go over a jump a jump will go over him.
If a horse doesn't want to be caught in his stable, he will take a long rope, tie one end to something inside the stable, catch a horse with a rope, choke him a little bit on the neck, tack him up. That should teach him to come to you when you enter the stable!
If a horse doesn't stand still when you are on the ground, he wants you to kick him in the stomac. And the explaination was: all horses kick each other when they are in a herd.
If a rider can't do something, he will throw a horse shoe at you. Sometimes it gets you sometimes it doesn't... And guess what, his students were successful at competitions, many wanted to ride for him. Well, not me.
If a horse stops in front of the jump when a student is jumping, he will ask you to whip the horse. If you don't whip him hard enough, he will come and do it himself. If it is still not hard enough, he will take A POLE and throw it on the horse! The idea behind this: If he doesn't go over a jump a jump will go over him.
If a horse doesn't want to be caught in his stable, he will take a long rope, tie one end to something inside the stable, catch a horse with a rope, choke him a little bit on the neck, tack him up. That should teach him to come to you when you enter the stable!
If a horse doesn't stand still when you are on the ground, he wants you to kick him in the stomac. And the explaination was: all horses kick each other when they are in a herd.
If a rider can't do something, he will throw a horse shoe at you. Sometimes it gets you sometimes it doesn't... And guess what, his students were successful at competitions, many wanted to ride for him. Well, not me.
Many people in the horse world seem to think that, because they have asked the horse properly (i.e. the girl telling the horse to move forwards explained earlier) the horse has no reason whatsoever not to obey, and this then often means to some that the rider has every right to punish the horse strongly for it: which is not the case.
It is said all the time, but horses are not machines. It's so easy to say "yeah, yeah I know." but so many people do not appreciate the true meaning of this.
The horse, who biologically has no vested interest in jumping or behaving calmly when he feels in danger, has every right and reason to say "hang on a minute, why should I?" because it is he rider's duty to make the horse - and every horse's right to - feel motivated, safe and happy in what he is being asked to do. If a horse doesn't want to jump, rather than punish it shouldn't the rider be thinking "what can i do that will make this horse love jumping again?"
Isn't that why we are horse lovers? If some (or rather, many!) riders want to ride something that will never under any circumstances; resist, question, spook, disobey commands; then, frankly, they ought to buy a motorbike as they clearly do not understand or respect that the horse is being just that - a horse. Do people really want to ride something that submissive and lifeless?
As it is unjust to punish or act intolerantly of a horse for being a horse (i.e. spooking or having a nervous desposition) then why do they choose to ride one? It is us, as humans, who make horses live alone, feed what we give them when we want to give it to them, go at a pace and direction only as and when directed, live with perticular horses on particular grazing, think before they act, and give in to pressure. Horses put up with and obey so much (what if Headley Brittania decided not to do a flying change during the show jumping phase, or cantered slowly simply because she thought, why not?) and I don't think some people fully understand or appreciate that.
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It is said all the time, but horses are not machines. It's so easy to say "yeah, yeah I know." but so many people do not appreciate the true meaning of this.
The horse, who biologically has no vested interest in jumping or behaving calmly when he feels in danger, has every right and reason to say "hang on a minute, why should I?" because it is he rider's duty to make the horse - and every horse's right to - feel motivated, safe and happy in what he is being asked to do. If a horse doesn't want to jump, rather than punish it shouldn't the rider be thinking "what can i do that will make this horse love jumping again?"
Isn't that why we are horse lovers? If some (or rather, many!) riders want to ride something that will never under any circumstances; resist, question, spook, disobey commands; then, frankly, they ought to buy a motorbike as they clearly do not understand or respect that the horse is being just that - a horse. Do people really want to ride something that submissive and lifeless?
As it is unjust to punish or act intolerantly of a horse for being a horse (i.e. spooking or having a nervous desposition) then why do they choose to ride one? It is us, as humans, who make horses live alone, feed what we give them when we want to give it to them, go at a pace and direction only as and when directed, live with perticular horses on particular grazing, think before they act, and give in to pressure. Horses put up with and obey so much (what if Headley Brittania decided not to do a flying change during the show jumping phase, or cantered slowly simply because she thought, why not?) and I don't think some people fully understand or appreciate that.
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