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Just clarify something for me...
- Thread starter EquiPortal
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Terminology tricky here. Because aggression is a "negative" word. I have watched Rashid get more assertive in a particular case than many of his audience liked. Though with the owner's approval.
He explained that he will use any method a situation demands - that in an extreme case, getting compliance from a difficult or otherwise dangerous horse may be its last chance before it is auctioned off for meat.
Good point, Skib! It's a very fine line between aggression and assertiveness!
Some would say it's not in the action, but in the attitude behind it, which I would aggree with - but not everyone can see that.
I can't imagine Rashid would be aggressive in the sense of being violent just to intimdiate the horse, but would, of course, be as assertive as he felt necessary under the circumstances - and extreme circumstances sometimes need extreme measures.
Some would say it's not in the action, but in the attitude behind it, which I would aggree with - but not everyone can see that.
I can't imagine Rashid would be aggressive in the sense of being violent just to intimdiate the horse, but would, of course, be as assertive as he felt necessary under the circumstances - and extreme circumstances sometimes need extreme measures.
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AengusOg
Guest
Yes, it was answered very well.
I think some of the problems relating to training horses come purely from the myriad of scientific points of view, often fogged by how each of us interpret them, leading to endless debate by homo sapiens who simply think too much.
I tend to simplify horse training and believe that learning from the horse, rather than having any preconceived ideals, is the easiest way for horse and handler.
I'm not well read on the 'big names', nor do I keep up with the latest scientific 'findings'...........I'm more of a horse and people watcher.
I suppose that's why I roll my eyes occasionally.
No offence meant to anyone.
I too prefer to use non-aggressive methods ... surely it is common sense and logical to work a horse in a way that does not cause it/minimises pain and stress? Being assertive is specifically not being aggressive - that is a different tool entirely and the line is not that fine. Aggression can and is labelled as being assertiveness, be that right or wrong, but not vice versa.
Horses use the minimum amount of pressure necessary and will only use more aggressive behaviour ie.e fighing) if absolutely necessary. It is too risky otherwise. So why shouldn't we?
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Horses use the minimum amount of pressure necessary and will only use more aggressive behaviour ie.e fighing) if absolutely necessary. It is too risky otherwise. So why shouldn't we?
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A myriad of pseudoscientific points of view / flavours, perhaps.
I don't think there are so many controversies in equine science 'proper'.Preconceived ideals (and ideas) are unhelpful, I agree.
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AengusOg
Guest
A myriad of pseudoscientific points of view / flavours, perhaps.
Point taken.
I read the thread and I just don't understand what do you classify as a non agressive behaviour towards horses? And when you say "using as much pressure as you need"? How do you draw a line between what is just enough and what is aggressive? Lets say your horse doesn't move forwards, would you start whipping him as hard as you physically can just to get him to move?
Parelli is about understanding and satisfying horse's needs and puting relationship first. Relationship that is build on trust and love. Not by showing who is the boss in the most possible humane way. And there are no excuses such as "extreme situations" to cause horse any pain.
Parelli is about understanding and satisfying horse's needs and puting relationship first. Relationship that is build on trust and love. Not by showing who is the boss in the most possible humane way. And there are no excuses such as "extreme situations" to cause horse any pain.
Thre'll be different opinions, but I think it's in the attitude. If the horse doesn't move forwards, and you start with just a small signal - movement in your own feet say, it still doesn't move, so you swing your rope/stick whatever you use, it still doesn't move so you tap it with the rope, it still doesn't move - so you swat it harder - that's not aggressive. You've giving the horse every chance to offer the right answer, and you're going to stop immediately it does give the right answer. Assertive would mean you carry on until you do get the right answer. Aggressive would be assuming you won't get the right answer and going straight to the swat /phase 4 whatever you want to call it.
Another scenario. A stallion is getting excited and starts to turn on the handler. The handler has to assert his/her space quickly and forcefully or the situation will be very dangerous. They have to do whatever it takes and do it immediately. Extreme situation - it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Assertive would be doing whatever it takes to create the space you need to be safe and be able to maintain it - and that could involve a fair amount of force. Aggressive would be continuing to exert that pressure to try and intimidate the stallion once the initial aim as been achieved. (A stallion will use a fair amount of force to drive another off his territory - but when the intruder has left the territory, he stops.) I've seen Parelli doing one of these - and he understood the stallion's needs alright - it's need was to show he was the toughest stallion in that arena.
Parelli was fast and effective - and phases 1,2 and 3 went out of the window, as did love and relationships - but he was, to my mind, assertive, not aggressive.
You make me laugh early this morning
The problem is that people usually let horses walk all over them without noticing the dominant behaviour.
I am sure you have all seen them in livery. The horse crowds his handler while leading, the horse drags handler from stall to paddock and vice versa. The horse head-butts the handler, the horse nipps (?) the handler while girthing etc ....
So they think horses are these very sweet loving creatures, who are a bit spooky
They never challenge the horse dominance, so they rarely encounter an agressive horse.
Therefore the issue of being assertive never comes in the picture.
It is only when one realisizes that his/her horse is bossing/bullying him/her around that the horse will become agressive, and the handler will have to become assertive ....
Haven't read all of the above, but my take on it would be, like Wally, that agression gets you nowhere. However, I do think people often confuse aggression with assertiveness in this context.
It is perfectly possible to get firm without getting agressive and horses are more than capable of knowing the difference. Mark Rashid talks a lot about 'intent' and anyone whose horse has ever seemed to display 'telepathic' tendencies has probably experienced just that. Horses know, because it's what has kept the species alive all this time, if we are being firm (like other horses would be) or agressive (like a predator would be).
If it's the former then they will respect it, if it's the latter then they will either flee from it, or depending on their innate characteristics and spirit, will return it with interest
NH techniques are intrinsically free from 'agression' - that's the whole point, to achieve partnership and communication not dominance by force. They are most definitely not free from assertiveness. It's the human that needs to be trained to appreciate that, and IMHO the main reason why so many really good traditional horsemen have been 'doing NH' all their lives, because they grasped that long ago without the help of NH practitioners.
It is perfectly possible to get firm without getting agressive and horses are more than capable of knowing the difference. Mark Rashid talks a lot about 'intent' and anyone whose horse has ever seemed to display 'telepathic' tendencies has probably experienced just that. Horses know, because it's what has kept the species alive all this time, if we are being firm (like other horses would be) or agressive (like a predator would be).
If it's the former then they will respect it, if it's the latter then they will either flee from it, or depending on their innate characteristics and spirit, will return it with interest
NH techniques are intrinsically free from 'agression' - that's the whole point, to achieve partnership and communication not dominance by force. They are most definitely not free from assertiveness. It's the human that needs to be trained to appreciate that, and IMHO the main reason why so many really good traditional horsemen have been 'doing NH' all their lives, because they grasped that long ago without the help of NH practitioners.
I think Angus has boiled it down very well, you work with a horse and watch how he reacts to your training, if what you are doing isn't working, you change methods and go down a different route, If it's a rider/horse combination who are having a sticky patch 9 times out of ten simple observation by a third party will pick up on what is causing the problem.
Like a person who got on out bestest, most reliable horse, and yelled at him and jabbed him in the mouth for walking off before she was ready................she never noticed herself kick him hard in the ribs as she scrabbled for her own balance, put the blame fair and square on the horse then punished him for doing what she just asked him to do
I think, as Angus says, if we read too much and strive too hard we lose the plot, paralysis by analysis
Like a person who got on out bestest, most reliable horse, and yelled at him and jabbed him in the mouth for walking off before she was ready................she never noticed herself kick him hard in the ribs as she scrabbled for her own balance, put the blame fair and square on the horse then punished him for doing what she just asked him to do
I think, as Angus says, if we read too much and strive too hard we lose the plot, paralysis by analysis
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Yann
Guest
I would say it's as simple as whether the horse becomes nervous of the handler as a result of their actions, whatever the handler's intent.
From the human's viewpoint perhaps, but not always the horse's I don't think.
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AengusOg
Guest
EquiPortal........You may be interested in this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlcvCACkZ8k........ ........it was discussed some time ago here, and may help you form an opinion.
In the context of 'NH', as in all training of horses, there is no place for aggression.
Understanding, empathy, compassion, patience, repetition, firmness, respect, trust.........from the trainer.......are all essential to kind and effective training of the horse.
Aggression or coercion on the part of the handler will sweep all that away in an instant and destroy any trust which may have been built.
Fear is a healthy emotion in both horses and humans.
Fear in horses can sometimes be used to great effect in their training if the handler recognises that it exists, when it increases, and how/when to react to decrease it......as when using 'advance and retreat', for example.
Without knowledge of that element of fear, particularly in the young horse, the handler may blunder through the training and, failing to recognise and allow for the fear-based reactions from the horse, may end up with more problems than solutions.
Fear in horses will certainly cause them to flee and, where that option is closed to them, they may be forced to resort to aggression.
Fear in humans, on the other hand, is very different.....particularly when it comes to fear of horses, and can cause many more problems than it can solve in their training.
I suspect that much of the aggression shown toward horses by humans is fear-based.
The person which Wally describes above probably reacted mainly out of fear in that situation, although pride and self consciousness probably played a role also.
That person would seem to have had no regard for that horse, and little understanding of how to work with, and get the best from, horses generally.
I have seen many situations where horses have been routinely (seemingly unthinkingly) met with aggression by owners/handlers, and most have been fear-based, possibly spawned of ignorance and misunderstanding of the horse as an animal.
I have also seen horses whipped and slapped and kicked by people who have been more concerned about their own feelings and self image, than by any feelings for their horse.
That sort of aggression can only result in a horse who responds to the handler/rider through fear, resulting in a very different animal than one which has been trained/worked using non aggressive methods.
The use/non use of aggression depends on the individual, not on the method employed/favoured.
There is, however, a difference between aggression and confrontation.
Kate F's example of the potentially dangerous stallion required steadfast confrontation in the interests of the safety of the handler/trainer, but only in so far as to persuade the stallion to desist from his attemps to intimidate the handler.........anything further than that end would have been an aggressive act and, therefor, abusive.
Stallions would tend to exhibit that behaviour through their desire to dominate, but mares and geldings can be equally dangerous through fear if aggression is used toward them, particularly where they have been treated aggressively previously.
I always suggest to my clients that they adopt the following rules when training/handling their horses:
1. Don't use the voice to chastise.......I believe the use of harsh tones upsets horses, and can do damage similar to a physical reprimand.
2. Use the halter ('Be-Nice' in my case) to silently correct the horse in the event that it has got something wrong (even in the case of a horse which is acting dangerously).........any voice aid used with the halter is not only unnecessary, but will allow the horse to connect you with the halter correction.
To be effective the halter correction must be considered by the horse to be remote from the handler, so that the praise for the correct response after the correction can be the more appreciated by the horse.
3. Give voice praise immediately the horse gives the correct response (any passive response initially) so that he may make the connection between his try and a good response from you.
4. If you find yourself losing composure and patience, find a good point to finish and start again another day.
Once a handler/trainer is in that mindset and way of working, it is less likely that they will lose control of themselves and act offensively toward the horse, thus reducing the chance that their first reaction will be an aggressive one.
A good horse trainer must have control of him/herself if they are to achieve control of their horse.
Anyone who is guilty of aggression toward horses should perhaps consider snails as pets.
In the context of 'NH', as in all training of horses, there is no place for aggression.
Understanding, empathy, compassion, patience, repetition, firmness, respect, trust.........from the trainer.......are all essential to kind and effective training of the horse.
Aggression or coercion on the part of the handler will sweep all that away in an instant and destroy any trust which may have been built.
Fear is a healthy emotion in both horses and humans.
Fear in horses can sometimes be used to great effect in their training if the handler recognises that it exists, when it increases, and how/when to react to decrease it......as when using 'advance and retreat', for example.
Without knowledge of that element of fear, particularly in the young horse, the handler may blunder through the training and, failing to recognise and allow for the fear-based reactions from the horse, may end up with more problems than solutions.
Fear in horses will certainly cause them to flee and, where that option is closed to them, they may be forced to resort to aggression.
Fear in humans, on the other hand, is very different.....particularly when it comes to fear of horses, and can cause many more problems than it can solve in their training.
I suspect that much of the aggression shown toward horses by humans is fear-based.
The person which Wally describes above probably reacted mainly out of fear in that situation, although pride and self consciousness probably played a role also.
That person would seem to have had no regard for that horse, and little understanding of how to work with, and get the best from, horses generally.
I have seen many situations where horses have been routinely (seemingly unthinkingly) met with aggression by owners/handlers, and most have been fear-based, possibly spawned of ignorance and misunderstanding of the horse as an animal.
I have also seen horses whipped and slapped and kicked by people who have been more concerned about their own feelings and self image, than by any feelings for their horse.
That sort of aggression can only result in a horse who responds to the handler/rider through fear, resulting in a very different animal than one which has been trained/worked using non aggressive methods.
The use/non use of aggression depends on the individual, not on the method employed/favoured.
There is, however, a difference between aggression and confrontation.
Kate F's example of the potentially dangerous stallion required steadfast confrontation in the interests of the safety of the handler/trainer, but only in so far as to persuade the stallion to desist from his attemps to intimidate the handler.........anything further than that end would have been an aggressive act and, therefor, abusive.
Stallions would tend to exhibit that behaviour through their desire to dominate, but mares and geldings can be equally dangerous through fear if aggression is used toward them, particularly where they have been treated aggressively previously.
I always suggest to my clients that they adopt the following rules when training/handling their horses:
1. Don't use the voice to chastise.......I believe the use of harsh tones upsets horses, and can do damage similar to a physical reprimand.
2. Use the halter ('Be-Nice' in my case) to silently correct the horse in the event that it has got something wrong (even in the case of a horse which is acting dangerously).........any voice aid used with the halter is not only unnecessary, but will allow the horse to connect you with the halter correction.
To be effective the halter correction must be considered by the horse to be remote from the handler, so that the praise for the correct response after the correction can be the more appreciated by the horse.
3. Give voice praise immediately the horse gives the correct response (any passive response initially) so that he may make the connection between his try and a good response from you.
4. If you find yourself losing composure and patience, find a good point to finish and start again another day.
Once a handler/trainer is in that mindset and way of working, it is less likely that they will lose control of themselves and act offensively toward the horse, thus reducing the chance that their first reaction will be an aggressive one.
A good horse trainer must have control of him/herself if they are to achieve control of their horse.
Anyone who is guilty of aggression toward horses should perhaps consider snails as pets.
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Wrong way around - NH when practiced as intended by someone who knows what they're doing and is in control of their own body and emotions is intrinsically free of agression, that is one of the principals on which is is based in order to respect the horses dignity, develop trust and foster communication and co-operation. It it people that put the agression there when they react instinctively, out of fear or out of ignorance. I wasn't saying it doesn't happen, just that it is not a part of the NH ideal
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Yann
Guest
I would agree with you, but I've witnessed work with horses by NH practitioners that left the horse scared of them, hence my comment. At no stage did that practitioner 'lose it' with the horse, but they were far too heavy handed.
chickyd444
Jasper 1993-2008 'Legend'
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AengusOg
Guest
I haven't witnessed this in person, but I must say some of those videos which were going around recently on Youtube did leave me feeling sorry for the horses at various points.
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