Years of going nowhere?

S

selside

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Jul 1, 2010
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Yorkshire Dales
Sorry everyone - this is going to be a bit rambly (plus I'm not sure there's an actual point! BUT............I want to start a comlimentary thread to eml's fascinating one from the weekend about 'kick along or technical riding'. This time from the pupils point of view. So........ a sizzling electronic sausage (Ooo-eer that sounds a bit dubious doesn't it? :redface:) - Extra Special Pork, Sunblush tomato & basil, naturally - to anyone who can be bothered to plough through the following.

I feel like I'm about to 'fess up AA meeting stylee. You see, I've only just realised that there's a difference :banghead: A great chasm of ignorance has opened up in front of me, and I feel like I've 'wasted' years learning very little apart from the most basic of basics.:furious: As a pupil with no horsey time apart from the weekly RS lesson you trust your instructor (certainly as a little 'un) and rely on them to teach in the fullest sense of the word.

When I learnt as an 8-9yo in the late '60s I went to an extraordinary 'city' RS in a Liverpool suburb. Cue dusty cobweb laden, mildewed mirrored indoor school and a really Dickensian lead character who wore hunting style breeches & boots and taught in a very 'military' style. I recall his beautiful bright chestnut horse called 'Allah' (how politically incorrect is that?) and how he used to lose his temper and hurl his stick at the ponies. Looking back I can see it was a dated teaching style even then, but I didn't know any different. At least it was a proper grounding, but rider centred rather than horse centred.

Since then Iv'e had lessons at another 6 RSs over the years, with breaks in between. And I don't recall being taught anything explicitly about balance, seat aids, or any other technical aspects of riding. It's as if some RIs (only some) learn a sort of shorthand way of getting the outcomes they want, and settle for certain phrases which they use - and skip the explanation of the WHY stage altogether. And we riders (or at least dim old me) don't always get it!:stomp: Or we focus too much on ourselves and our riding. e.g. ref seat aids. an RI may say 'Sit tall' or 'sit up nice and straight' when about to transition from say, trot to walk. I took this to be to avoid the novicey thing of tipping forward on transitions, but of course it's about giving a signal to the horse too. How come in all these years I never understood this?

In a total of 7 RSs we only ever did lateral work in 1, and that was only a simple leg yield. On a lesson when on holiday this year a patient RI nearly wet herself trying to explain serpentines and demi voltes (sp?) to me. I didn't have a clue, certainly about the latter, and she seemed amazed, and asked "What exactly DO you do on your lessons?" Tbh I felt mortified, and left rather deflated. It's been churning over in my mind ever since - a horrible feeling that I've missed out on something - like I've been robbed of all those years.............:cry:

Riding my occasional ride leg at each corner all-rounder connie over the summer I have found out for myself that you can steer a well schooled ponio by just thinking (well almost). You hardly need to move a muscle, and the tiniest shift in balance, rein or leg pressure has an effect. This is a revelation to me. Although this is an exciting discovery it makes me feel like :poop: too.

Yes, definately teaching methods have changed over the years. (Always stting trot into canter for me, left the only place where they didn't teach that) but are they any better? Is anyone else in the same position as me - have you noticed that there is a lack of explanation about why we are asked to do things? Anyone suddenly realised they know nothing? I could cry, and it's beginning to bug me :help:

Please, please dont' think is an attack on RSs and RIs. It's not. I love the place that I ride and my teacher. Maybe for a happy hacker and occasional rider it's OK to just do the basics, but I feel there's so much more out there, and I'm not sure how to get at it. On the other hand I may have been taught well and learned badly. I know this makes me one of eml's kick to go and pull to slow pupils, but this is over a total of 10 years of weekly lessons, right through the 70's, 80's, 90's and the last 2 years.

So - here's some thoughts to get you going. (just playing devil's advocate, these thing may not be factors at all.)

Have I been unlucky with where I've learnt?
Has using 'budget' riding centres contributed?
Am I just self-obsessed and thick?
Have I really been let down?
Are most RS horses 'over routined'
Am I overthinking this?

As they used to say back in school - Discuss.

Sorry. Lemon sorbet to follow the sausage snacklet if you got this far. Apologies for the self-indulgence....................
 
They are some heavily loaded questions at the end!

I understand what you mean though and although I can't remember the specifics of what I was taught when I learnt to ride many (!) years ago I feel I was also probably 'duped' out of knowledge I should have been given. I wasn't taught about using your weight at all. It was pull to stop, kick to go although it was emphasised to not be hard on the horse's mouth.

I had a truly terrible seat position and always leaned forward out of nervousness - I was forever being shouted at "heels down, lean back" but no explanation as to WHY. Which, as you quite rightly say, is cruicial. How can one be taught anything and not understand why the processes are there in the first place? It's totally leading somebody blind to do that.

I learned ever such a lot from the family I lived with in the USA (when I was 18) as well, who would talk about how they teach, why and what it means. They had a very western, natural approach that for me was completely new and fascinating. A whole different approach to the typical english RS of the 80s & 90s.

But it wasn't until this summer when I found my new RI, who absolutely loved as she felt like a complete breath of fresh air, that I realised how much I'd missed out on. She explained why we did what we did, what it meant for Roxy, how it affected her, what it means to her, how it helps her, why and how she thinks the way she does. And importantly, what it leads to in future. Something simple she would explain, and was always talking through the above points when I was doing whatever she had shown me, and would go on to tell me how we would use it in future in whatever situation.

I truly found it fascinating. And as a relatively okay rider (I'm not confident but I have ridden over many years, english & western, schooling & hacking) I found it was all very new information - and I too wondered why I didn't have this knowledge before hand.
 
Don't worry you are far from alone. I learned to ride as a child and carried on having lessons all my life. I was actually in my 50's when I met an instructor that revolutionised my thinking and made sense of an awful lot I had read that had been missing from my lessons and understanding. Sadly 'how to teach' and 'theory of riding' is not really addressed in training instructors and an awful lot of teachers never really study themselves
 
I felt quite deflated when I realised that I hadn't been taught like OH got taught when we moved yards. The first place I had proper lessons at was marvellous in many ways, but didn't tell me "why" we did the things we did, or explain things in any depth. Plus, they were used to dealing with younger people, so I think this may have contributed? Anyway, I was very upset (posted about it on here) when I thought everything I had been taught was "wrong". It wasn't technically wrong, just different - but upsetting all the same. I look forward to the day when I have lessons again, but this time, I am really going to look into it properly and not just accept (gosh I sound fussy) the first instructor I find. I want somebody who explains in depth and who can teach me at my speed and not push me to fast (one instructor made me move on too quickly and it had disasterous results).
I don't think you are overthinking it either - I think it is good to anaylse and want more out of your lessons.
 
I think one of the difficulties is that there is sometimes there isn't one correct way or theory about riding. Take for example bending the horse. When I started to learn to ride it was that the horse bent evenly along it's spine , then this changed to people saying that a horse can't physically bend along the whole length of their spine. But the aids haven't changed so it becomes a bit confusing about what exact effect the aids are having on the horse. I recently read an article that said that the commonly held idea that you controlled bend with the outside rein was incorrect and that on a circle the hind legs did not follow the track of the foreleg but if the horse was to remain balance had to step outside the track of the foreleg. No wonder it gets confusing!
 
I have ridden it seems for most of my life and have had a varity of different instructors. Some were good some not. My latest instructor is fantastic. She explains things to me and I now actually understand why I do what I do. I feel like a lightbulb has gone off in my head. Yaye. But as you said, what a wasted opportunity of 30 years of riding. I could be a fantastic rider now, rather than a frustrated one, trying to alter her style of riding. I am getting there slowly, but feel pleased with myself for every sucess and now I am determined to become a "good" rider who understands the horse. :playfull:
 
classical dressage

Hi
You made me a happy man when i saw your Thread, i have been in UK more then 15y, & i have been saying the same think over & over, in the moment that there is no school master horses & no lunging lessons to teach people how to seat correctly, will never be in UK correct riding, and happy horses, riding has to be done with lightness & feeling and not to pull the had down from front backwards, and to hummer him in the back, in this way the riding school will never be able to teach correct riding, & have happy, and sound horses, the horses are working to many hours and they are not schooled correctly. Also the instructors are not riding enaugh, or some of them not at all, they must practice to keep the feeling alive & the body in condition, and to be able to know what they are teaching, other wise they are like a parrot. This is also the reason that in UK there is so many horses in the R.S.P.C.A stables, bad riding.
Good luck to you and don't give up, I am trying very hard to open something special, i don't know if i will succeed bat i am trying.
www.faibishclassicaltrainer.com
 
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You aren't alone but then I do think that riding and horsemanship has changed over the years.

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm not a technical ridier and have learnt heaps since getting my own horse. I won't ever be a good rider and Joy won;t ever be more than the product of what I am and so is very limited in her abilities as a result.

When I returned to riding after a long break I think I learnt more about what was possible from reading New Rider than I did from my lessons although my lessons helped me to gain confidence and develop, NR gave me a clue about what I personally was aiming for for.

I do think we as clients can influence our teching by making it clear to the RI what we want from our lessons and talking more and asking more. I always get downhearted when I see thread where people are asking what their RIs mean by such and such a term. The RI should be doing the explainations and the pupil should be asking if they don't understand.
 
I had a fantastic RS back home - yes it had its flaws, but then such a large establishment, that was heavily oversubscribed (with a waiting list) and 40ish horses - was always going to have its flaws. As a younger child I wanted to go fast and jump - as did the group, but as we got older we learnt to appreciate why we alternated weeks with flatwork and jumping rather than all jumping.

When I moved up to manchester I spent 6months at a new RS - I don;t think I learnt anything - I was in the "advanced" group (and I wouldnt say I was an advanced rider, back home I was intermediate, and now if anything my riding skills have lapsed due to only riding one ponio), and in the end I asked week in week out to be put on a 4yo very green horse (who hadnt even seen trot poles) because I was bored of jumping the same two cross poles each week, in the same way - in a group of 8-10 it is hard to improve jumping - especially as I was one of the better riders - considering it was an advanced group, an awful lot needed a lot of supervision still! In the end I was schooling in this young horse, and was just allowed to get myself a little space somewhere and do work with her on my own with no input from the instructor.

If I had grown up to ride there... well I saw the kids who had and were "advanced". They would have no idea how to leg yield, or turn on the forehand - but stick a jump up and they can "get the horse over it"
 
I started riding when I was 12 (so 33 years ago) I was "taught" by a woman who's attitude was to stand and scream her head off. I learned how to sit properly, how to hold the reins and that was it!

It's only been in more recent times that I've learned about balance and contact and technical stuff, and most of that I figured out as I was going!
 
I had weekly or fortnightly lessons from the age of 5 to 27 at various riding schools- and whilst I loved riding different horses and being instructed I didnt really learn anything new from the age of about 17.

I have been told I have a good position (probably thanks to years of being corrected) and I know all the various school movements & basic lateral movements. At my last place I was in their advanced group which worked in open order (all the riders do their own thing and work on their particular horse with the RI offering input) and most of the time I was left to it - felt like I was paying to school their horses a bit.

Dont get me wrong, you can't practice the basics enough and I certainly dont think I am amazing rider - I'm encountering all sorts of challenges now I have bought my own horse who knows nothing!

I just think most (affordable) riding schools dont have enough "school masters" to match the ambitions of the more experienced riders - particularly in group lessons where normally the ability and level of education of the horses is normally even more varied than that of the riders.

It must be hard for RIs in group lessons.

Plus when you are riding different horses all the time, who are all being ridden by different people, you have no sense of progression. Each time you ride them you are working on the improving the same issues as there is only so much you can do in an hour every few weeks.
 
After reading this thread i think the RS i go to isn't too bad infact probably one of the better ones.

I really like my RI. Although she isn't the most sympathetic of nervousness etc she was good in the early days putting my mind at rest by telling me what the horse was thinking and i found this really helpful. I had a fertile imagination, i was sure walking backwards meant we are about to rear and take off but she assured me it meant 'i want to be back in the stalls eating with my pals'! I loved her for this.

I have been there about 2 years, 2 lessons per week. When i started there i said i could WTC but now that just makes me laugh. I could probably stay on but that was the extent of my knowledge. Now i can walk trot and canter but i'd still call myself a beginner.

We do work in open order in our lessons and usually do stuff like shallow loops, serpentines, leg yeilding, turn on the forehand and my RI does explain things to us reasonably well.

I would say at the moment i can fit into any of the classes at the RS without standing out too much. In the beginners class if it is all basic stuff i use the time to work on my position, sometimes work without stirrups to make me work harder, or i'll ride one of the more challenging rs horses who i wouldn't choose in the more advanced lessons. There are some who in canter feel like a roller coaster ride, there is no way i'd attempt a 20m circle never mind canter a shallow loop, the wall of death springs to mind!

I would like to hear more from my RI about what to do with my hands. Now that i am trying to steer with my seat i need to sort out what im doing with my hands.

I do enjoy having a lesson from someone different once in a while just for a different pair of eyes, a fresh look at whats happening!

Best bit about my RI is her 'spades a spade' approach. I was telling her recently that i'd posted a thread here moaning about my riding and a few folk had said all they could see was 'tense'. She said 'you are not tense, i never think you look tense'... I was like 'really, thats good because i don't feel tense, i feel confident now'.

She says ' no you never look tense to me ....................... You just look stiff!':stomp::giggle:

She does make me laugh!!!
 
This is an interesting thread -
You havent been cheated of your horsey life. You have paid your money and had satisfying rides? And it is only now maybe that you are wondering if you might like and be able to afford a bit more?'
By all means do some reading, watch some demos or videos, shop around. I too educated myself with the help of new rider.

But dont let NR or any other forum persuade you that there is only one correct way to ride a horse, nor even an agreed and perfect way to teach riding. My OH is a great believer in saddle time - that simply being on a horse teaches our bodies and our minds and you have had quiet saddle time.

Going nowhere is another question. Where is it that you want to go? eml wrote about motivating people. To do what? And why? Going no where on a horse - pottering about in the water meadows with only birds about is a great joy. You wont get Olympic medals or admiration for going nowhere on a horse but it is an experience to be treasured.

Using your seat, lateral work etc is a vexed question. Some top dressage riders do it one way; others another. Besides, all things in riding may depend on moderation? But after all these years of saddle time, as you say, you already use your seat without knowing it. That simply by thinking the horse a little to the left or right of the track, brings the result you have in mind. Why does that make you feel bad?

I was taught to open and close our gate this summer by a teacher who told me to forget lateral movments and simply think where I needed the horse to be. The horse doesnt know the smart names -

Think out carefully whether there is anything you would really like to do on a horse and havent yet done. Or a sort of horse you might like to have the experiencve of riding and then perhaps seek out the approriate teacher for a lesson or two? Because you cant specialise in everything - it is like A levels and going to uni - one has to follow one's interests and to specialise.

If you are suddenly greedy for information, good luck. But dont write off what has gone before - Just build on it and enjoy.
 
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You've prompted me to make my first post, Selside! We are obviously about the same age, and having rode as a child (a bit) I took up riding again about eight months ago. I beat myself up regularly, and am convinced that I'm a complete numpty, the likes of which my RI has never seen.
You're questions at the end of your post were interesting. I ride at a stables which is maybe 'budget' end. My RI is in her twenties, and although I have nothing to compare her with, I'm pretty happy with what/how she's teaching. She's straight talking but doesn't yell or shout insults, and is always reminding me that she, too, is still learning and always will be. She does sometimes say that I overthink things, but that is just me. What I would say, and this may seem obvious, but have you really explained to your instructor what your goals and expectations are? And are you clear in your mind that you know what they are yourself? Like I say, I'm guilty of beating myself up, but sometimes we all need to sit down and focus on the things we are getting right, and doing well. Maybe you need someone (your RI or another rider?) to tell you. Hope you find yourself in a better place with all this soon.
 
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