Saved ponies life now it’s turned into Satan!!!

[Zanny1407]

I bought my daughter her pony in October-within less than a week we were told she had strangled, this went, then came the purpura, then she kept getting infections etc, steroids, antibiotics, bute. You name it, we tried it, we were at the point of giving up, and tried one last course of antibiotics and she slowly started responding.
Now she is well, clipped, shod, hacking a few times a week, on cushings meds, good diet etc. Well rugged, well feed, nice stable, company, daily turn out. When we viewed her in be known to us she was starting with the strangles, no visable signs. But we got her for her age, early 20s, size, and mainly she was just a been there and done it.
Now she is well, hacking she is good, but very forward to what she was-which is fine, she’s still safe-but does keep throwing the odd buck in, if my daughter wants to walk rather than trot, or trot rather than canter.
We had open stable walls, but wired up so it was really open and all 3 ponies can see each other, have had to close hers up cos she was kicking hell out of the walls at feeding time-this has now stopped this.
When she is now giving a net, she is mini rearing, ears back, nasty face. When I poo pick, even if tied up in stable she flicks her legs, and threatens to kick, when ponies walk past her stable she pulls faces and threatens to bite. When turned out, she stands and kicks and kicks the a joining fence to other ponies. I tried her with the Shetland and he just chased her around and she just kicked and kicked-never has she kicked any person or horse-she hasn’t bitten anyone, but there is no trust as I don’t trust my 8 year old with her incase, and I don’t know what to do. It is definitely food related, she was in a very bad state when we got her, no doubt been starved and beaten at some point. I just don’t know if she is guarding the food, anxious or taking the piss out of us and seeing how far she can go. PLEASE HELP!!

 

[MrA]

First thing I would check re the bucking when ridden is that she is not in pain? Assuming her saddle has been checked and re fitted now if her condition has significantly improved?

If it's not pain what work was she doing before you got her? What clip does she have, does she need an exercise sheet? What feed is she on? She could be more forward if everything is new, bucking to try and catch up with the horse in front. Basically it could be anything.

She might be kicking out at you in the stable as she feels insecure, scared or is in pain. Does she associate you with all the treatment she has had to have for being unwell? How long have you had her?

Has she ever been turned out with other horse before?

I'm sure others on here can give much better advice I do have a food obsessed boy though, he will chase other horse away. I don't think when I got him over 10 years ago it would have been safe to walk down his field carrying a haynet but over time he has improved and now he just waits until I put it down

 

[Mary Poppins]

If you look at any yard at feeding time you will see similar behaviour of horses kicking, ears back etc. Some get so excited when the feed comes they look like they will kill anyone who comes near them. This is especially true of ex racehorses and horses who have had food with held in the past. If you have a routine where all the horses are fed together at the same time, it is hard to avoid. It’s horses being horses.

With the turnout, again she is being a horse. Some horses do better in individual paddocks away from others. If she doesn’t like company she may be better on her own. Your may have to take her out of the field and the stable to poo pick. She may be a horse who needs her own space and feels threatened by anyone else in there. This is understandable if she has been mistreated.

Regarding the bucking, I would get a vet to check her over for pain. Make sure her teeth have been seen to and that her saddle fits properly. She sounds like she could be running away from pain somewhere. Or perhaps she hasn’t been schooled properly and the only thing she has previously been asked to do is to go faster and faster.

She strikes me as a horse who is scared, has little trust in people and doesn’t understand what you want from her. Horses like this can be very rewarding to work with but they need time, patience and understanding. Perhaps she might not be the best fit for a timid 8 year old?

 

[Huggy]

Such a shame, as you're obviously doing your best to give her a lovely home. Is she, or has she been given treats regularly? My boy is very food driven and he can't have any treats at all - gets really pushy. I can only go from what I did with him when I first got him. A strict regime of tied up when I bring him in, doesn't get bucket until he's stopped kicking the wall and barging about, made to back up when I take the bucket in and I pet him for a moment when he gets the bucket, so he accepts that I have the right to touch him around food (including hay in field). It's taken time, but he's improved such a lot in the time I've had him.

 

[carthorse]

Your basic problem is almost certainly that she feels better than she has in years and is throwing her weight around. Maybe getting a bit more energy from her feed than she needs?

Some just don't play nicely with others where feed is concerned and if that's the case open sided stables are a nightmare. I've had to provide a private area before, just as you have.

The threatening you in the stable is absolutely unacceptable though. How confident are you? If you aren't then I'd tie her up outside while you do her box, or do it when she's turned out. If you're confident - and I mean confident, not prepared to give it a go - then work with her in the stable and give her a right rollocking of she threatens you. I don't mean beat her, but big assertive body language straight into her space with a sharp no and what ever else it takes to make her go "oh **** I shouldn't have done that!" and shove her out of your way so you move her. Likewise when you put nets in - if you aren't happy correcting her then do it when she isn't there. It would probably help to have tie rings at the front and back of the box and always have her tied when you're in the box, at least until she realises she isn't God. Some horses will show dominant behaviour around feed and it isn't always because they've been starved and beaten, but even if it is they need to learn to be safe to be around.

Ridden I agree with the others who say get her saddle fit checked, it sounds like she's gained condition and that will very likely have an impact.

In the field I'd keep her on her own for everyone's safety. Can you run some electric inside her fence line to stop her kicking the fencing? It may be that the behaviour with the Shetland was horses being horses, it';s hard to say without having seen it, but from the sound of things you certainly can't put hay out if she's with others.

I do wonder if it would be worth you getting in a professional to assess her behaviour and advise you where to go from here. Little nuances can tell whether it's fear, aggression, pushing the boundaries or something else, so without seeing the two of you together it's difficult to say what to do for the best. It's just a pity horses don't think along the lines of they've done so much for me so I'll be an angel for them!

 

[Frances144]

Maybe she hates being in a stable. All that food, all that pent-up energy. Some horses hate stables.

 

[Huggy]

Maybe she hates being in a stable. All that food, all that pent-up energy. Some horses hate stables.

Yup. Had me one of those!

 

[Jessey]

I’d be getting the saddle checked and thinking long and hard about the feed she’s getting. I have a very dominant greedy mare who has flattened me on more than one occasion (mostly when she was a baby) so I really do understand, with Jess finding feed and hay that is low calorie and giving her more of it works way better than giving her a tiny bit of the best, she doesn’t feel satisfied and gets hangry! Equally if it’s too much energy going in she turns into a fire breathing dragon!

Being clipped often makes them a bit more feisty, perhaps consider clipping less off in future to see if that helps

I’d second @carthorse on squaring up the threatening behaviour quick smart, that should absolutely not be allowed to continue and as @Huggy suggested cut out all treats, nothing to be fed by hand at all, as it really can make them even pushier. Never give access to a bucket/net while she’s threatening, and always keep yourself in a safe place. I will stand outside a door/gate if needs be and if they start I won’t go further until they stop, every time you try to ignore or rush through bad behaviour to put the bucket down you are reinforcing the behaviour because they think their behaviour is what made you give it to them. Equally when you get good behaviour don’t dally about and reward them promptly. While you’re working on getting the respect be aware of time constraints etc., if you’re in a rush prep the stable before bringing in so you’re not tempted to rush through taking feed into her, consistency in your expectations is key.
My new youngster was pushy when he first came (he’d never had a bucket feed before) but he now knows the wait command and that he can’t try for the bucket until I say eat, he tried turning his bum on me a couple of times but quickly realised that wasn’t going to get him very far! (Doing an impression of a toddler throwing a tantrum really surprised him ).

 

[Huggy]

Something jessey said resonated - recently mine has been very thuggish. I'm pretty sure because I upped his feed, without thinking about what he was getting more of. I substituted mollichaff with just grass chop, and brought the nuts down to the bare minimum, and he's definitely quieter. Think through what she'd eating, and if it's high energy.

 

[Zanny1407]

First thing I would check re the bucking when ridden is that she is not in pain? Assuming her saddle has been checked and re fitted now if her condition has significantly improved?

If it's not pain what work was she doing before you got her? What clip does she have, does she need an exercise sheet? What feed is she on? She could be more forward if everything is new, bucking to try and catch up with the horse in front. Basically it could be anything.

She might be kicking out at you in the stable as she feels insecure, scared or is in pain. Does she associate you with all the treatment she has had to have for being unwell? How long have you had her?

Has she ever been turned out with other horse before?

I'm sure others on here can give much better advice I do have a food obsessed boy though, he will chase other horse away. I don't think when I got him over 10 years ago it would have been safe to walk down his field carrying a haynet but over time he has improved and now he just waits until I put it down

Thank you for your reply, the bucking when ridden is more excited, and frustration of being held back. She’s very happy when in trot on roads etc, just can be a bit Bucky when held back-which I new.
She came for a yard with over 300 acres, and about 4/5 barns full was a big yard, and was turned out and stabled with them-but in my head she was the bottom of the pile. She was fully clipped in a rainsheet when I got her, living out-very wormy. Later found out about strangles then got tested for cushings.

thank you for your reply x

 

[Zanny1407]

If you look at any yard at feeding time you will see similar behaviour of horses kicking, ears back etc. Some get so excited when the feed comes they look like they will kill anyone who comes near them. This is especially true of ex racehorses and horses who have had food with held in the past. If you have a routine where all the horses are fed together at the same time, it is hard to avoid. It’s horses being horses.

With the turnout, again she is being a horse. Some horses do better in individual paddocks away from others. If she doesn’t like company she may be better on her own. Your may have to take her out of the field and the stable to poo pick. She may be a horse who needs her own space and feels threatened by anyone else in there. This is understandable if she has been mistreated.

Regarding the bucking, I would get a vet to check her over for pain. Make sure her teeth have been seen to and that her saddle fits properly. She sounds like she could be running away from pain somewhere. Or perhaps she hasn’t been schooled properly and the only thing she has previously been asked to do is to go faster and faster.

She strikes me as a horse who is scared, has little trust in people and doesn’t understand what you want from her. Horses like this can be very rewarding to work with but they need time, patience and understanding. Perhaps she might not be the best fit for a timid 8 year old?

Thank you very much for your reply. I have kept her on individual turn out, hoping I can slowly introduce them over summer. I have spoken to my vet today, and he is confident it is ulcers due to all the meds she has had. So she’s is on colygon for a week to see if she responds to that and then go from there. But she fits the bill for the symptoms-so your right with the pain if it is ulcers. Thank you x

 

[Zanny1407]

Such a shame, as you're obviously doing your best to give her a lovely home. Is she, or has she been given treats regularly? My boy is very food driven and he can't have any treats at all - gets really pushy. I can only go from what I did with him when I first got him. A strict regime of tied up when I bring him in, doesn't get bucket until he's stopped kicking the wall and barging about, made to back up when I take the bucket in and I pet him for a moment when he gets the bucket, so he accepts that I have the right to touch him around food (including hay in field). It's taken time, but he's improved such a lot in the time I've had him.

Thank you, she gets a treat ball with a handful of high fibre everyday pellets in, mainly for boredom. That’s a really good idea, thank you. I read online to try and walk towards with bucket if ears forward keep going, if ears go back step back until you can approach with ears forward. Thank you again x

 

[Zanny1407]

Your basic problem is almost certainly that she feels better than she has in years and is throwing her weight around. Maybe getting a bit more energy from her feed than she needs?

Some just don't play nicely with others where feed is concerned and if that's the case open sided stables are a nightmare. I've had to provide a private area before, just as you have.

The threatening you in the stable is absolutely unacceptable though. How confident are you? If you aren't then I'd tie her up outside while you do her box, or do it when she's turned out. If you're confident - and I mean confident, not prepared to give it a go - then work with her in the stable and give her a right rollocking of she threatens you. I don't mean beat her, but big assertive body language straight into her space with a sharp no and what ever else it takes to make her go "oh **** I shouldn't have done that!" and shove her out of your way so you move her. Likewise when you put nets in - if you aren't happy correcting her then do it when she isn't there. It would probably help to have tie rings at the front and back of the box and always have her tied when you're in the box, at least until she realises she isn't God. Some horses will show dominant behaviour around feed and it isn't always because they've been starved and beaten, but even if it is they need to learn to be safe to be around.

Ridden I agree with the others who say get her saddle fit checked, it sounds like she's gained condition and that will very likely have an impact.

In the field I'd keep her on her own for everyone's safety. Can you run some electric inside her fence line to stop her kicking the fencing? It may be that the behaviour with the Shetland was horses being horses, it';s hard to say without having seen it, but from the sound of things you certainly can't put hay out if she's with others.

I do wonder if it would be worth you getting in a professional to assess her behaviour and advise you where to go from here. Little nuances can tell whether it's fear, aggression, pushing the boundaries or something else, so without seeing the two of you together it's difficult to say what to do for the best. It's just a pity horses don't think along the lines of they've done so much for me so I'll be an angel for them!

I think she definitely does, now on cushings meds, and stabled, rugged etc. Due to her cushings she is on soaked hay, straw lami chaff, half a scoop morning and night, and 1/4 cup of a lami/good doer balancer.

thank you for all your advice, I’ve spoken to my vet today and he is thinking ulcers due to all the meds she has had. So she is on colygon for a week to see if she improves. She has a lot of the symptoms. Would explain a lot as she has never behaved like this.

thank you again x

 

[Zanny1407]

Maybe she hates being in a stable. All that food, all that pent-up energy. Some horses hate stables.

She has daily turn out even in snow etc, as we have a carpet fibre turn out area. And she goes in the field 2-3 times a week for a buck etc, and gets ridden 2-3 times too. She seems to really like her stable, rolls, lays down etc, not stood at the door like my cob! Thank you

 

[Zanny1407]

I’d be getting the saddle checked and thinking long and hard about the feed she’s getting. I have a very dominant greedy mare who has flattened me on more than one occasion (mostly when she was a baby) so I really do understand, with Jess finding feed and hay that is low calorie and giving her more of it works way better than giving her a tiny bit of the best, she doesn’t feel satisfied and gets hangry! Equally if it’s too much energy going in she turns into a fire breathing dragon!

Being clipped often makes them a bit more feisty, perhaps consider clipping less off in future to see if that helps

I’d second @carthorse on squaring up the threatening behaviour quick smart, that should absolutely not be allowed to continue and as @Huggy suggested cut out all treats, nothing to be fed by hand at all, as it really can make them even pushier. Never give access to a bucket/net while she’s threatening, and always keep yourself in a safe place. I will stand outside a door/gate if needs be and if they start I won’t go further until they stop, every time you try to ignore or rush through bad behaviour to put the bucket down you are reinforcing the behaviour because they think their behaviour is what made you give it to them. Equally when you get good behaviour don’t dally about and reward them promptly. While you’re working on getting the respect be aware of time constraints etc., if you’re in a rush prep the stable before bringing in so you’re not tempted to rush through taking feed into her, consistency in your expectations is key.
My new youngster was pushy when he first came (he’d never had a bucket feed before) but he now knows the wait command and that he can’t try for the bucket until I say eat, he tried turning his bum on me a couple of times but quickly realised that wasn’t going to get him very far! (Doing an impression of a toddler throwing a tantrum really surprised him ).

I will get saddle checked, did get it fitted, but as said she may of gained top line etc. Feed wise-straw lami chaff 1/2 scoop morning and night. Lami balancer 1/4 cup daily, soaked hay. And a handful of everyday high fibre nuggets a few times a day for lami and good doers. Probably more than she has ever had in her whole life, but I want her to gain condition and get her vitamins etc. She was in a state when I got her and she looks so much better.

she was fully clipped when I got her, in October. I’ve given her a bib clip, thought she may if been abit fresh, she’s just very forward to what she has ever been! But she maybe running away from pain, spoken to vet today and has said it’s suspected ulcers, now on colygon to see if she responds to it.

that’s really good about your youngster, and great tips for rushing. I do rush, I have 3 children at home due to lockdown, and time is hard! Especially -3 in snow! But I agree with not reinforcing the behaviour and will take that on board, thank you.

will try being a loud big thing when she turns her bum next time!!! X

 

[Zanny1407]

Something jessey said resonated - recently mine has been very thuggish. I'm pretty sure because I upped his feed, without thinking about what he was getting more of. I substituted mollichaff with just grass chop, and brought the nuts down to the bare minimum, and he's definitely quieter. Think through what she'd eating, and if it's high energy.

Thank you, she is on lami straw chaff, lami balancer, and soaked hay and few handfuls a day of everyday high fibre nuts in treat ball. Don’t think she is overly fed, they get a hay net 3 times a day, and never without for more than an hour, in that time they clear up any off floor and have treat ball too.

thank you though! X

 

[carthorse]

Cologne, while a good product isn't going to cure ulcers or do more than give very short term relief, I've had a horse with ulcers and while a syringe of it would get himup off the floor if he was hurting it was a sticking plaster not a cure. There are two tests to confirm ulcers so talk to your vet about them because if they are the problem she needs proper meds. I hope that isn't the case though.

 

[Zanny1407]

Cologne, while a good product isn't going to cure ulcers or do more than give very short term relief, I've had a horse with ulcers and while a syringe of it would get himup off the floor if he was hurting it was a sticking plaster not a cure. There are two tests to confirm ulcers so talk to your vet about them because if they are the problem she needs proper meds. I hope that isn't the case though.

Yeah he said it’s not a cure, just said it’s worth a try to see if she responds to it and if she does then we know what we are dealing with. It truely wouldn’t suprise me-we have had a number of wrong ponies for my daughter on loan, and decided to buy her an old been there and done it type. And it’s been one thing after another. But if it’s treatable and it turns her temperament back to what it was I am willing to do it! She was literally the perfect pony. Now she is grumpy, and nothing like she was. Thank you for your advice, really appreciate it.

what are the two tests? If pony is showing many symptoms is there a medication they will give to get rid or do they have to do lots of tests etc? X

 

[Huggy]

Hope you can resolve it. Will you update us on how things go?

 

[carthorse]

Yeah he said it’s not a cure, just said it’s worth a try to see if she responds to it and if she does then we know what we are dealing with. It truely wouldn’t suprise me-we have had a number of wrong ponies for my daughter on loan, and decided to buy her an old been there and done it type. And it’s been one thing after another. But if it’s treatable and it turns her temperament back to what it was I am willing to do it! She was literally the perfect pony. Now she is grumpy, and nothing like she was. Thank you for your advice, really appreciate it.

what are the two tests? If pony is showing many symptoms is there a medication they will give to get rid or do they have to do lots of tests etc? X

You can diagnose by a gastric scope or there's a test done on droppings. Scoping is more accurate but the pony needs to be starved before hand and it may be a hospital procedure if your vet doesn't have the equipment to do it. The droppings test is far simpler but not as accurate and certainly won't tell you severity. Jim showed clear on a droppings test but a gastric scope showed ulcers. I guess you could do the cheaper and easy droppings test first and go for a scope if that shows clear but you and your vet still think they're likely.

The treatment is GastroGard or one of the other buffered omeprazole products on the market. They aren't cheap and normally need at least a month's course but they're the only ones which switch off the proton pumps and allow the ulcers to heal. If she's insured for vet treatment then you'll definitely want to put a claim in.