Ground work/ Manners

[lauren123]

Hello. After some advice and happy to take everything on board
I haven't had this problem with sox. Sox wouldn't say boo to a goose.

Ginger, however is a different kettle of fish. He's a cob X, built like a tank, big feet. I believe strongly he has been able to get away with his bargy behaviour for a long time and it worked. Because when he puts his ears forward he's soo cute. As people tell me, yet I tell them not to be fooled by his looks.

At the start. If ginger didn't want to do something ( Go into his stable) He would rear up then drag you to where he wanted to be. More then once I have been dragged. I very quickly changed his headcollar for a halter and a long rope ( One I have for sox for loading as he responds well to pressure and release) Ginger still tried it. But he has more respect for the halter now. After the second rear. The next morning. I spent as long as needed going back and fourth from his stable to the field ( He didn't like leaving the mares) Not getting annoyed. Just armed with my hat, glove, his bridle and a lunge line. Yes he reared up, attempted to drag and barge. Though after a while. Not loosing my cool we got there. Every time he dragged or pulled I span him back to his stable. When he planted I waited, even when he was messing with the stable door at one point closing it. I opened it and waited. Soon after he started to get the message . If he walks nicely in and out he gets there in the end. The continued for number of days afterwards. He had no more rearing.

However when the farrier came to trim he, ginger wasn't happy and reared up ( He was in a normal headcollar as I thought he would be tied up) I quickly turned him and put his healter on, he wasn't happy but didn't rear again.

The work currently is backing up when I enter the stable ( feed etc) back up when I open the field gate. He doesn't go out the gate or the stable first. I do.
Any other.. hints tips. I am happy to take advice

 

[carthorse]

First of all get in touch with his owners, you're assuming he plays them up but he might not & it could be they could give you a lot of help with a few simple tips.

On your yard are there well behaved cobs/heavyweights? I so it could be worth asking them for a hand because a lot of what you describe is typical for a cob that has the upper hand.

I'm not a big fan of formal groundwork simply because I feel we should be viewing all the time we spend with them as groundwork. Be attentive, firm & consistent - if something is wrong it is always wrong, not just when you can be bothered or it's today's thing to work on. I hate to say it but you should be sufficiently on the ball that you correct him before the rear or barge. And don't underestimate praise & reward when he gets it right or even doesn't get it wrong.

Is there a reason why he's bad for the farrier? If you have a farrier you trust then it may be best to hand Ginger to him & step away because most farriers are also excellent horsemen. If you don't trust him then find one you do!

I think that handling the majority of cobs can be summed up by "say what you mean, mean what you say". Don't faff or bluster, they'll see straight through it and have no respect for you. Don't be afraid of seeming tough, if he's hard headed you have to be too, it's easier to correct firmly once followed by praise when he does what you want than to spend hours just trying to get in from the field - which probably bothers him far less than you & certainly isn't something you can do every tome.

 

[lauren123]

First of all get in touch with his owners, you're assuming he plays them up but he might not & it could be they could give you a lot of help with a few simple tips.

On your yard are there well behaved cobs/heavyweights? I so it could be worth asking them for a hand because a lot of what you describe is typical for a cob that has the upper hand.

I'm not a big fan of formal groundwork simply because I feel we should be viewing all the time we spend with them as groundwork. Be attentive, firm & consistent - if something is wrong it is always wrong, not just when you can be bothered or it's today's thing to work on. I hate to say it but you should be sufficiently on the ball that you correct him before the rear or barge. And don't underestimate praise & reward when he gets it right or even doesn't get it wrong.

Is there a reason why he's bad for the farrier? If you have a farrier you trust then it may be best to hand Ginger to him & step away because most farriers are also excellent horsemen. If you don't trust him then find one you do!

I think that handling the majority of cobs can be summed up by "say what you mean, mean what you say". Don't faff or bluster, they'll see straight through it and have no respect for you. Don't be afraid of seeming tough, if he's hard headed you have to be too, it's easier to correct firmly once followed by praise when he does what you want than to spend hours just trying to get in from the field - which probably bothers him far less than you & certainly isn't something you can do every tome.

I have spoken to the owner before and apparently the stuff at the times ( With the mares/ riggy) He never did. For the farrier he normally stands like a rock. Though according to the owner he can and will try it on with you.
There is a few on the yard. Its mainly been firm and fair I believe with them, but I shall ask them. I aren't sure why he was bad with the farrier. Apparently he is fine for them.

That makes sense.
Thanks x

 

[Jessey]

I agree consistency is key, draw a line re what behavior is acceptable and what is not and stick to it 100% of the time, do not allow them to push 1 whisker past it (correcting before it becomes a big deal)because if you let them do that 1 day they will escalate it the next day.

I am totally on board with correcting firmly the first time so you don't have to nag about an issue and keep correcting it because you were too soft at first, but you do have to be a little careful to not be too 'loud' in the correction, sometimes its like arguing with a family member, if you are too intense with your reaction they escalate to meet you...regardless of who is wrong or right.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

My RI and I are working on complete compliance and obedience from Ziggy at the moment. I have to say I find it really hard because he is so cute, etc., and I have let him get away with everything for far too long, but it does pay dividends.

If he does something we don't like (anything) he has to back up. If he has his bridle or head collar on, fine, but even if he doesn't, hand on nose, hand on chest, he backs up. And he has to do this even if he takes one step out of line.

He's never been as testing as Ginger but he's definitely responding to training. As everyone else has said, knowing what the rules are and insisting on compliance is the key. Even if it gets tiresome.

 

[carthorse]

I agree consistency is key, draw a line re what behavior is acceptable and what is not and stick to it 100% of the time, do not allow them to push 1 whisker past it (correcting before it becomes a big deal)because if you let them do that 1 day they will escalate it the next day.

I am totally on board with correcting firmly the first time so you don't have to nag about an issue and keep correcting it because you were too soft at first, but you do have to be a little careful to not be too 'loud' in the correction, sometimes its like arguing with a family member, if you are too intense with your reaction they escalate to meet you...regardless of who is wrong or right.

The bit in bold, reading back I didn't really make myself clear Jessey, obviously you do have to assess what is firm enough for the horse you're dealing with. If I corrected Little Un the way I would Jim then he'd be in such a state that I spend ages calming him back down & be wary for ages. If I'd corrected Jim in a way that works for Little Un then he'd at best have ignored me & in all probability have come back at me to correct me for being irritating! With Jim you went in all guns blazing & only if you were completely confident, it did look harsh & raise eyebrows, BUT if it was needed a couple of times a year that was it & he was naturally a very polite horse. Little Un's manners are much more taught & that does show if he's given to someone to handle who isn't sure what they are doing or is worried about upsetting him - cob off doing his own thing very quickly & not really caring if he flattens a handler in the process.

 

[Jessey]

The bit in bold, reading back I didn't really make myself clear Jessey, obviously you do have to assess what is firm enough for the horse you're dealing with. If I corrected Little Un the way I would Jim then he'd be in such a state that I spend ages calming him back down & be wary for ages. If I'd corrected Jim in a way that works for Little Un then he'd at best have ignored me & in all probability have come back at me to correct me for being irritating! With Jim you went in all guns blazing & only if you were completely confident, it did look harsh & raise eyebrows, BUT if it was needed a couple of times a year that was it & he was naturally a very polite horse. Little Un's manners are much more taught & that does show if he's given to someone to handle who isn't sure what they are doing or is worried about upsetting him - cob off doing his own thing very quickly & not really caring if he flattens a handler in the process.

I had my arab in mind when I wrote that he was an over-excitable git and needed to be told decisively it wasn't ok when he had a 'moment'. He would stand there and take low correction all day and still do what ever you were trying to stop but he was also sensitive after a certain point so it was a real balancing act with him, the high octane correction and quick and complete release was so key

 

[CharliesAngel]

with mine i do a good bit of inhand walking, either in a rope halter or a bridle. They HAVE to walk politely with me at their shoulder, not invading my space and with a slack rope - you shouldn’t be having to ‘hang on’, push or pull. I stop frequently and expect them to stop their feet when I do then stand patiently and wait for a few minutes until we walk on again. No fussing, no trying to eat, no pushing at me with noses YOU control where the head is but again, the rope has to be slack, they have to stay where you put them. I also ask them to back up a few steps and move quarters round. I do all this going out for walks and also in the school using obstacles like cones and poles on the ground to make it more interesting. I do carry a short stick and corrections are immediate, dont pussy foot around being too nice, if you correct him and he is bolshy and ignores you then you haven’t been strong enough. With something particularly ‘arsy’ I have been known to also carry a short length of mr blue pipe, just saying

ETA - with your kicking incident in mind, i would also be tying him up, lots, with food and working around him. Safety in mind at all times (wear your hat!) and keep moving around him, working on his legs, picking up his feet etc and dont tolerate any dominance.

 

[Kite_Rider]

Totally agree that consistency is key, all the time, every time until it becomes so ingrained that you do it without thinking.

 

[Lemme]

Our Gem tried it on with the Farrier on Saturday, last time she was a bit figgety this time she decided to be a right pain in the Ars* - ours are done in the field, so daughter positioned her close to the fence and our Farier was firm but fair with her, by the time it came to the otherside she had made the decision to be good - daughter then gave her a 15 minute lesson on the headcollar on pressure and release and doing what she is told not want she wants! honestly like kids sometimes - but safety is the priority and she has to be respectful, she is with us normally but all means all, Farrier, vets whoever, at 5 its part of ongoing education for her, this time of year she gets less handling so no doubt she will have a few more try on's before shes back in fulltime work. She's like a dope on the rope most of the time luckily when she does try it on she's not nasty with it just silly.

 

[Skib]

Havent had a chance to comment till now and I realise it started with discussion between professionals. As a RS rider who eventually helped out on a livery yard, ground work as such didnt come into it.As I never had that opportunity.
What I did learn tho was that ground work, in the sense of manners, is not limited to formal sessions. I learned to lead from reading a leaflet by Kelly Marks and she said that if you didnt have a round pen you could teach the horse using a stable.
The following year I began to watch demos in which Michael Peace or Mark Rashid would lead all the horses they met. Just walk on and halt to start with, Asking the horse to back up a step if it stepped too far forward. As Charlie's angel describes above. The horse taking its cues from the leader and keeping out of their personal space. When that started to go well (usually quickly) the trainer would use walk, halt, back up, walk on.
I assumed that this would work equally well for me. And it did. This routine takes place in a non conflict situation. And it is something I did with every single horse. There was something very reassuring about knowing a horse would do as one told it.
But it does involve blocking out a whole lot of extraneous info. When a trainer met a horse a a clinic, it was immaterial how that horse behaved with its owner or with its Police handlers. I didnt care how the horses behaved with their owners or other staff. All that mattered was how they behaved with me.
If you then transfer the leading and backing up lessons to a conflict situation then I guess you do have to calculate the risk. I was warned not to get between my share and her food. But on balance I felt that she had to learn that she must obey me everywhere in all situations. If I conceded that she had priority when it came to her food, then she had (in a sense) got priority over me everywhere. I marched her into her stable and turned her bhs style and removed her bridle before I allowed her to touch the food.
She was a bad biter. She could put people in hospital. So I assume that staff continued to avoid going between her and her food. But on the other hand I never saw any member of staff do the leading and stopping I did. It was always the massive problems they were trying to solve - loading, farrier, dentist, sedation, clipping etc.
If like some people here have said, you use just 5 minutes for the basic kindergarten stuff when you and he are neither of you under pressure. May be on the walk between stable and field.That is where I would start. Same as you are doing but not just at the crisis points of the gate and the stable -
Wear a hat, wear gloves and stay safe. But make the little things clear.
We had a cob so difficult she had been for NH training and people used to say she was as bad as ever. I dont think the training stays fixed.
What should be fixed is the idea in your head. When you go out you dont want to be wondering how the day is going to be and whether or not he will behave with you. That puts the horse's decisions in charge of your day. Working with him at the basic level (high percentage chance he will comply and get it) should let you know (in spite of the previous kicks and rearing) that this is a horse you can handle. That he will walk, stop and start for you and you are in charge.
My experience is that by some strange level of communication, the horse learns that too.

You may find that with this horse you do eventually need to use high pressure - it isnt forbidden.

But the Lyons theory is that you break all training down into baby steps. And also by the way that we set ourselves up for success - you dont ask something of a horse that he isnt in a position to give you. Thus, to stop the rearing and kicking, you may need to do a lot of retraining with the horse on the placing and lifting or moving of four individual feet. But simply using these terms may have taken it to such a low level that it is well within your competence and control.

On backing up by the way. I am not keen on backing up being used as a punishment. It is used intensely as a punishment in some Western training. But I expect horses to back up to show compliance or move pout of my space. I ask back up of every horse I lead and every horse I ride. Taking a step back isnt something I want a horse to associate with punishment. It is just a direction of movement.

 

[PePo]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it is 'naughty' behaviour.

Rearing or any other 'naughty behaviour' is a huge indicator to me that a horse has surpassed many thresholds of being 'OK'. To me, it's the equivalent of someone literally having to scream and shout to get someone to listen to them.

Honestly? I would invest in a good behaviourist or trainer that has a sound knowledge of horse psychology and behaviour and get them to work with you & Ginger to help your partnership.

 

[orbvalley]

Because when he puts his ears forward he's soo cute. As people tell me, yet I tell them not to be fooled by his looks.

This ^^^happens to me all the time! People tell me when they go into my mares fields she's so lovely/such an angel/comes for cuddles blah blah blah. I'm sure they can even see the halo above her head But in reality she's a very opinionated little madame, if she's see's a way in she's there through it and buckarooed before you've even had time to blink. When sh' not being a fizzy hot head I suppose she can come across as cute and twinkle like. But the truth is the only way to own her is to give her absolutely clear boundaries and never ever move them 1mm. She actually responds better to these fixed rules, but other liveries still see just the sun shining out of her ****

 

[carthorse]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it is 'naughty' behaviour.

Rearing or any other 'naughty behaviour' is a huge indicator to me that a horse has surpassed many thresholds of being 'OK'. To me, it's the equivalent of someone literally having to scream and shout to get someone to listen to them.

Honestly? I would invest in a good behaviourist or trainer that has a sound knowledge of horse psychology and behaviour and get them to work with you & Ginger to help your partnership.

You have a point Pete's Mum, and it may be that Ginger hasn't settled yet. However I wouldn't say that rearing is always a sign of a horse that feels it has to shout to be heard, it can also be a very strong willed horse who's determined to be top of the order. It's also, though obviously not in this case, a stallion trait.

 

[lauren123]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it is 'naughty' behaviour.

Rearing or any other 'naughty behaviour' is a huge indicator to me that a horse has surpassed many thresholds of being 'OK'. To me, it's the equivalent of someone literally having to scream and shout to get someone to listen to them.

Honestly? I would invest in a good behaviourist or trainer that has a sound knowledge of horse psychology and behaviour and get them to work with you & Ginger to help your partnership.

With the rearing, as an example I understand your point of view. However when he has reared its been like when he had the farrier ( owner was shocked as he normally stands like a rock) or rearing when I tried to take him away from the mares he thought were 'his' them literally dragging me back down to them.
But then I have also been told by the owner apart from bringing mares into season. He is fine with them.

 

[lauren123]

You have a point Pete's Mum, and it may be that Ginger hasn't settled yet. However I wouldn't say that rearing is always a sign of a horse that feels it has to shout to be heard, it can also be a very strong willed horse who's determined to be top of the order. It's also, though obviously not in this case, a stallion trait.

Ginger certainly comes across as a very strong willed horse. When it comes to anything of 'vaule' for example. Hay in the field or the gate on a night. Ginger won' hestistate to chase Sox away if he gets too close. Even when we were putting up a fence yesterday they both came over to see and if Sox got to close to him ginger would go for him and Sox double barrel and squeal at him.
Sox is seems wants a quiet life. Ginger... almost comes across as abit of a bully who needs bringing down a peg or two. Yet as their herd animals they don't like been separated and will call for each other a little if out of sight.

In regards to ginger backing up. I tell him and I even go a little overboard and he throws his head out of the way. Or I have to physically push him. I have used a good pick before and even then he will only step back a tiny bit.
However I was able to bring them both in together one day. Though were as ginger is normally more then happy to plod along he refused to walk along side of me until I made him. He had a chance to get Sox however he didn't. If he did I would have come down like a tonne of bricks even if that meant letting go off sox.

 

[orbvalley]

How old is Ginger @lauren123 ? Asking as Cocaîne 's first defence is to rear but she has finally starting to calm down in the last couple of months. She's 5 and none of her antics were caused buy previous abuse or bad handling as she's was reared on the farm where I livery her. She just has a very strong character and needs a firm handler.

 

[chunky monkey]

I had some little rears with Billy the other day. Was leading him to the mounting block and as he moved into position he caught something that was placed behind his back leg. He panicked and jumped forward. When I asked him to go back to the mounting block he got all stressed, refusing, as I got cross with him he started to rear and fight me by pacing about. Anything but go near the mounting block. I gave up in the end and went elsewhere to mount. When I came back from the ride I walked him to the mounting block and dismounted him there no issues at all. Next day he was fine mounting from it. But he's of that age.
I also notice we are going through a catching issue again. I got him over it before by doing send away and join up. But the fields so dangerous with the mud. I can't get round after him to do it at the moment. It's started again couple of months ago. Something has triggered it. I think also me clipping him and then him having the vet for vaccinations and teeth as made him distrust me.
First it was the odd day, now it's most days. He runs down to greet me, but as soon as I go in the field to catch him he turns his bottom on me and will run off. Having been double barreled once I'm worried he's going to try it again. I've seperate him from chunky to see if he settles. I will do some clicker training.

 

[lauren123]

How old is Ginger @lauren123 ? Asking as Cocaîne 's first defence is to rear but she has finally starting to calm down in the last couple of months. She's 5 and none of her antics were caused buy previous abuse or bad handling as she's was reared on the farm where I livery her. She just has a very strong character and needs a firm handler.

He is 9

 

[lauren123]

New one today! Reared with me on-oard while out hacking!