What are the pros & cons of treeless saddles?

[PinkFloyd]

In the title really Im thinking faaaarrrr ahead to starting my youngster off & what saddles to use and im interested in treeless saddles, do they feel any different to ride in? and do any of you use them??

Thanxs

 

[Portia]

I'm certainly not an expert on treeless saddles; there are others here on NR who fit that bill far better than I! Having said though, I have tried both, so from my perspective - excluding cost factors -

Pros
* can 'feel' movement of horse, and so can ask for gait changes and other manoeuvres more effectively
* allows free movement of shoulder/back without restriction of tree (although there are some treed saddle that do allow this, the Semiflex for example)
* some say same treeless saddle can be used on multiple horses without concern for fit, however I have read conflicting opinion.
* depending on design (plus your shape and riding style) some place the rider in a 'correct' riding position (I found that the HM fhoenix and vogue do this)
* much more comfortable for horse in endurance disciplines.
* alleged to help allow development muscle on backs damaged by poorly fitting saddles
* generally a lighter weight saddle
* again, depending on make, wonderfully comfortable to sit in!

Cons:
* I do debate the one-size-fits-all aproach so have listed as a con too - it's often used as a selling point.
*some riders find the treeles position awkward, and the twist too wide, can take time to adjust to the different seat.
* saddle slipping seems to be the repeated problem for some owners.
* depending on make purchased, you may also need to buy different styles of numnah, girth and stirrup leather.

Hope that helps

 

[newforest]

what did you want to know apart from what's been covered.

i have had and sold a torsion, barefoot and western.

now use libra, i also use one pad for all the saddles and i also have a suber.

i hack, jump, hunt, do everything i would do if i was treed.
my libra is more for endurance and i leave my stirrups long, i ride on my balance point and do western so this suits.
my other has knee rolls so i'd do more jumping in it though have jumped 2.3 in libra.

the only thing i would say in treeless, is that it is treeless, there is no twist.
your horse is as wide as a horse, if you find it too wide that's the animal not the treeless. a twist is how narrow or wide the middle of the tree is.

one size fits all, unlikely true. the saddle is designed to fit you and the horse. however you can shim the saddle if your horse has comformation issues this is the same as you could if treed. treeless saddles tend to be bigger as they are distributing the weight over a wider area.

Be cautious of cheap, you get what you pay for, i personally would not buy anything without a name, and if the company does not have a website for example. there are a lot of saddles being made and if the maker cannot put their name to it, i'd be worried.

i like my libra and it was the best £100 i spent, it was going to be something i used temporary and i've sold the torsion which although triple the cost it did nothing for my position and pony found it too heavy.

if you love bareback and you are reasonably balanced you will be fine. people do sometimes find in the first instance the saddle moves, this is i found isdue to it needing time to mould and take on the shape, plus if your new to treeless you need to stay balanced, any riding faults are doubled and show up more treeless.

enjoy

 

[Wally]

If you are the kind of rider who puts too much reliance on your stirrups the horse can get pressure points where the bars are, If you are a rider who sits on their bottom and only uses stirrups to aid balance they perform better.

 

[Skippys Mum]

My treeless saddle has been the making of my little horse. We had issues with the length of his back and the length of my legs. Treeless gave me a bit more flexibility. He is a young cob who is very wide and was changing shape rapidly so it has allowed for this and his back is muscling up beautifully.

Mine is a Freeform and was fairly expensive but has been worth every penny. They are NOT a one size fits all solution and for me it was a last resort. I now prefer treeless to treed but obviously this would depend on the horse.

I feel much more "with" my horse and feel as though I am riding "in" him rather than perched "on" him if that makes sense. Its also incredibly comfy and I have no bother with slipping.

Like everything else for horses - its dependent on the type of horse you have, size of horse, shape of horse etc. Dont get too fixed on only one solution.

Please do not be fooled by all the hype on ebay about how they fit everything always. This is not the case so do your research before you buy.

 

[lachlanandmarcu]

Agree with Wally about treeless only being good for endurance if you are riding lightly in the stirrups using seat not weighing down, if the latter you are better off with treed.

I have a fab Treefree Exmoor and it was bought for backing my youngster. Altho shes now 5 and generally ridden in treed saddle it is very very useful to have the treeless too as both she and the 17hand boy took to it straight away.

I liked the Treefrees cos of the quality of the saddle and because they didnt say 'its fab for everything' they were very straight about what treeless is good for and what its less good for.

 

[Madame_Sarah]

Not speaking as an expert, merely as an amateur...

I tried my new 4yr old, 14.2h Welsh sect. D in a treeless saddle before I bought her and found that, although it leaves her lots of room for her shoulders, it was more than difficult to get my leg on her.

I'm sure it's a case of getting used to it, the size and shape of your horse and your legs; nevertheless, my legs are quite long and my pony's barrel is quite short, so all the bulky stuff meant that the wrong parts of my leg were on her sides and she got a bit confused when I asked her to bend.

Treeless is a nice concept for babies, but they're not always supportive enough, and they can slip round - can be a tad traumatic for a baby to have a saddle slip. I'm planning to get an adjustable saddle for my girl, or part-ex leather saddles as she grows.
Not sure if any of that will help, but that's my attempt.

Sarah xx

 

[Skippys Mum]

Remember as well that all treeless saddles are not the same and they have different feel and different contact with the horse. Mine allows me amazing feel of my horse and is much closer contact than any other saddle that I've ridden him in.

 

[freeformuk]

Agree with Wally about treeless only being good for endurance if you are riding lightly in the stirrups using seat not weighing down, if the latter you are better off with treed.

I actually feel that this is not entirely true - stirrup pressure is an issue in both treed and treeless. On the English tree and in the absolute majority of cases, the stirrup bar is attached at the junction of where the tree bars meet the tree points; in other words, at the front of the saddle. Once the rider is out of the seat, their weight is transferred directly to those two points and the small section of panel directly above them. This means the rest of the tree is defunct for weight distribution whilever the rider remains out of the seat and if the tree is too narrow at those points, the weight of the rider can be multiplied in pressure. On top of this, the fact that the stirrup bars are too forwards for most riders, it means they are constantly out of balance and when it comes to rising trot, the "swinging leg" syndrome (the weight is constantly shifted backwards and forwards with posting) can cause the saddle to rock back & forth.

With treeless saddles, the issues can be similar but much of it depends on the shape of the horse, the numnah/padding used, the riding style of the rider and of course the saddle itself. As treeless saddles are flexible, the pressures applied by the rider are allowed to constantly fluctuate so long as they do not remain in the same position or pace for long periods at a time. If the rider aims to ride well and sensitively (which should be the case in all saddles), they can have a much more positive impact on how the saddle transfers their weight and pressure. With a tree and due to the rigidity of it, if there is already pressure, that pressure remains constant no matter how well the rider is balanced and light in the saddle (although this can help things).

Matching of saddle to horse is just as important with treeless as treed - they are not a "one size fits all" commodity. However, they do have more flexibilty of fit and can fit more than one horse so long as those horses are not at opposite extremes of shape.

Much damage can and has been done by the use of the wrong numnah under a treeless saddle; flat seams are a must and don't beleive anyone who says their treeless (especially the cheap brands) can be used with any old numnah because chances are, you will end up with issues. The main difference between the issues of treed and treeless is that with the latter, they show up sooner and are often visible in the form of rubs/sores/swellings (and again can usually be associated with the numnah/padding) but with treed, the damage is often long term and not so visible as it happens under the skin in the form of muscular atrophy. Many are not aware of any damage being caused until white hairs show which is often several months down the line or at coat change. This is how & why treed saddles have been considered for long as the ideal for the horse because of a lack of proper anatomical understanding by saddle fitters etc so they fail to see the real affects of how badly many treed saddles fit and the problems they cause.

When all is said and done, the saddle is only part of the equation. A good saddle will cause as many problems as a bad one if the rider is not sensitive to how they affect the fit and performance of their saddle and the affect it has on the horse.

On a personal note and to refer to the original question in this thread; I backed and broke my cob in bareback and followed up with treeless. That was 8 years ago and treeless is all he's known

 

[FeatheryFeet]

...

 

[Wally]

This is how & why treed saddles have been considered for long as the ideal for the horse because of a lack of proper anatomical understanding by saddle fitters etc so they fail to see the real affects of how badly many treed saddles fit and the problems they cause

.



.....that and the fact you are trying to sell us a treeless

I have both, however not all my horse like or go well in a treeless. same breed, same shape type, one guy said "get that thing off my back now" put him back in his treed saddle and he was a very happy bunny again.

 

[freeformuk]

......that and the fact you are trying to sell us a treeless .

On the contrary! I've seen blatant selling/advertising of treeless saddles on this site and it's the one thing I am aware of and have never been accused of. But treeless saddles still get a bad rep due to misinformation as much as anything and I'm not one to keep my mouth shut . And I too have dealt with cases over the years where the horse has clearly preferred treed and this is fine by me. But when comparisons are made, people only associate problems with treeless saddles when the facts are that there are issues with every saddle - it's how they're made and used that determines success or failure.

 

[birat]

I went treeless this year and it has been a rollercoaster journey. Initially I did a whole load of research to try and get what was best for my horse, me and my pocket. Did rather well I thought until it arrived. Suddenly, I became the saddlefitter and with no knowledge it was dreadful. I didnt understand half the things people talked about but with a lot of help and very good advice from a few people here, freeformuk being one - I am getting there. If you have a difficult horse to fit and I believe I do (croup high, withers, forward girthline, shortbacked and pot belly to name a few), it can be a nightmare. As I resolved one issue, another arose but I have stuck with it and feel we are almost there.

My point is that through my journey, I am learning and dont have to rely on a saddler. I am unltimately responsible and am much happier with that. Although I still havent got it quite right, my horse is going much better and is a lot happier. My treed saddle that supposedly fitted and was checked annually caused muscle wastage and restricted his shoulder movement. It wasnt until I took the plunge that I believed this and realised how much harm it was causing.

Another hurdle has been the riding as I know a lot have mentioned here. Not the best of riders anyway, I found treeless a completely new ball game and just couldnt do it - boy did I ache initially. Then I found the correct position and we were away. My riding has improved I know and by the way my horse is going I know he is happier with the way I am riding too. I used my stirrups far too much and worried about this with my treeless, but now I can ride with very little weight in them, even rising trot.

Im sure its not for everyone, or for every horse but I would say definately dont throw the towel in at the first hurdle. If necessary go for something that is a little more adjustable that will make it easier.
good luck

 

[newforest]

If you have a difficult horse to fit and I believe I do (croup high, withers, forward girthline, shortbacked and pot belly to name a few), it can be a nightmare. As I resolved one issue, another arose but I have stuck with it and feel we are almost there.QUOTE]


yes to the croup high, but my lad has now levelled out, possibly due to not having a treed saddle hitting him behind the scapula. though this is still bad from saddle fitting point of view. everyone has a hard horse to fit if you look at the comformation, it's people who simply can't find a treed saddle that normally go treeless as a last resort, (my chap)


Another hurdle has been the riding as I know a lot have mentioned here. Not the best of riders anyway, I found treeless a completely new ball game and just couldnt do it - boy did I ache initially. Then I found the correct position and we were away. My riding has improved I know and by the way my horse is going I know he is happier with the way I am riding too. I used my stirrups far too much and worried about this with my treeless, but now I can ride with very little weight in them, even rising trot.

riding in treeless is different, i sit on my balance point (parelli) but those who don't do parelli it's called sitting on your butt, not your pelvic bones.
ride as if there is no saddle. do not push heels down, that causes tension, lengthen stirrups and go with the flow you may find getting rid of stirrups helps your leg hang loose. sort of a western feel? you should have 50/50 weight in leg and butt not all in your heel that will put pressure on the stirrup bar.

i agree with parelli on a few things, namely
fit any saddle to a moving horse, the horse must be able to lift their back
the stirrup bar should be at least 5inches behind the scapula when standing
if your horse cannot lift it's back don't ride it, build up the muscle first