vaseline will it stop him cutting his mouth

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joy70

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My boy was very wound up on a fast hack yesterday, we had a new set of brakes, which worked better than expected, but when we got home the leaning & pulling on the reins had caused him to cut his mouth!!! :( theyre not deep cuts and they weren't bleeding either. I smothered them in vaseline after i took his tack off!

would it help to put the vaseline on before a ride, or should i ditch the bit and try something different :o
 
Vaseline will not stop your horse getting a cut mouth, what will stop it is if you don't pull on the reins (or don't let him get inot a tug of war with you).

I'd suggest a lot of schooling and getting your horse to listen to you, both in the school and out on hacks - do transitions, leg yield, anything to get you both thinking.

To be honest it doesn't matter if the cuts were deep or not, cut lips still hurt. I'd ditch that bit, get something that suits you both better and get some schooling done.

Sarah
 
if your horse has cut his mouth then i would not ride him untill it has healed or you may teach him that accepting the bit results in pain. you could try riding in a hackamore while his mouth is healing. Be warned thought that if you pull hard with a hackamore you will interfere with his breathing. I would also get his teeth checked as all the nose rubbing and pulling against the bit means your horse most likely has a problem in his mouth. Also if he has cut his mouth either your bit is too small or possibly too high up in his mouth. I would certainly check the height that the bit is sitting at and the width of the bit in his mouth. Get someone knowledgeable to give you a second oppinion too so as you can be certain of the fit. Then when you are sure of the fit of his tack you can move onto what bit to use and schooling.
 
I think you should definetley scrap that bit!! What was it?? It definetley didn't work at all, in any way if it caused him harm! How ever small!

Also you say all through your post how everything was causing "him" to cut his mouth! He's not the cause of his cut mouth, he didn't put the bit in his mouth, it's not his fault!

Like others have said you definetley shouldn't ride him untill it has healed. Even if it seems to make no difference in the way he goes and it looks small to you can you imagine if you had a cracked lip and somebody was constantly pulling at it and whenever you tried to move away from the pain they pulled harder!

You said in your other thread how he was pulling his head down to scratch. No wonder, he was envading you trying to get away from the bit!

I'm not saying he should be ridden in a snaffle, but after reading your threads I really think just getting a stronger bit is not the answer.

Have you tried Happy mouth bits? We have a horse at college that is strong because he's a 17.2hh Shire X but he cannot be ridden in a metal bit, he just runs away from it and gets a really sore mouth.

Vaseline will not stop "you" cutting his mouth and different bit will!!!
 
I agree, I can't see anything that can be construed as being nasty here, if you post up you get opinions especially on emotive subjects. Everybody here would be equally upset if they were in this situation and it had happened to them, there's no doubt about it, the question being asked is what to do about it from here, I for one would never use the bit again if it had this effect. We all have a duty as horse owners to try and resolve problems for the best, and if a situation is causing danger then it should be avoided until it can be dealt with.
 
Nobody seems to have come up with a reasonable suggestion yet though, have they folks??

I believe Joy70 has already tried the happymouth bits to no avail.

Joy has said that he's fine in the school, its just hacking out. Yes, she could just go on quiet hacks - which is fine, but as soon as you start fast work again, the problem raises its ugly head again.

It is a nightmare having a horse that is 'set in his ways', which you've tried countless remedies but nothing works.

Joy70 is clearly at the end of her tether here - can we not be a little more helpful with our suggestions?
 
here here piaffe!...BTW would a ring on the bit each side (der sorry forgot what they are called ) help with the pinching senario in future????......
 
Joy,

Firstly, we've all tried thing that haven't worked. At the end of the day no one can fault you on at least trying to ride safely and sensibly. It'd be different if you were deliberately trying an aggressive approach to sorting out your horse, but as you have been posting here for a while I doubt this is the case. I tried my old boy in a loose ring snaffle once and felt awful after I had finished schooling to see that it had pinched. Bit rings helped prevent this. I don't think I am a bad rider, and I'm reasonably experienced and knew how to fit a bit at the time, so if I can make this mistake then surely others can as well? Some times things have to be worked out by trial and error. Whilst we try to avoid this approach at all times, sometimes it is completely unavoidable.

The thing is that if he has a sore mouth, you'd be better off letting it heal before you get back on him. And vaseline won't solve the problem. If it's a loose ring style bit then bit guards may help.

What bits have you tried so far? Which bit was it this time?

What other things have you tried and how long have you had the problem?

What kind of horse is Toddy? Is he a cob-type or a more fine type?

Have you tried the bit bank?
 
Joy

I've had a pony that had incredibly soft skin on her mouth, and no brakes - she was a part appaloosa gymkhana pony ! And also seemed to feel no pain, so would just go and go regardless.

I ended up riding her in an english hackamore - but I know it doesn't suit all horses, plus her skin was so soft we had to pad it all around. I seem to recall using salt water - partly to clean the cuts but also to harden up the skin slightly (rather than salves which will just soften it more).

My next pony was also fast - and went in a variety of bits. My most useful combination was a dutch gag with two reins - as then I only needed the bottom rein for a very small bit of time and the rest of the time it was like riding in a snaffle.

If he is opening his mouth and the bit is going sideways, bit guards might help.

The other - seemingly commonsense but also scary - suggestion is simply not to let him lean on you.

A pulling horse gets some of his pony from having a 'fixed' point (you) to lean on. Rather than taking a strong constant contact, use lots of half-halts (which may need to be quite strong to get through) but release afterwards.

The way nerves can work is that they overload with a constant pressure and stop working. Or may only pick up changes in pressure. So having that 'pull' there all the time is not helping.

I will hold my hand up and say that pyschologically doing this (giving the rein) can be extremely difficult/scary when you have a horse that is fit and fast. But I can also say that I've done and it worked.

If you can't cope at this stage with releasing on both reins - release on one only at a time. (Does he have a 'hard' side ? release the hard side so the contact is on the soft side, then reverse).

I have also 'wiggled' and snaked and leg yielded my way up more roads then I've had hot dinners. Anything so I've keeping those muscles soft and flexed rather than fixed in a straight line and going fast !

[By the way - regarding who's said what and when - from what I can see Joy has only made the original post here (even if she has posted elsewhere on other threads) and in the meantime everyone has been wading in for or against !!]
 
yes Piaffe-bit rings-der was having a blonde moment I think!!!!...and James your right-was beginning to think it was just me and Nat who saw that side of things-however that being said I think now their are at last some constructive suggestions coming thru.....
 
i'll start from scratch now!

After reading some of the posts on here, ive spent most of the morning near to tears! I love my pony to bits and the fact that his mouth is cut & bruised bothers me enormously, o.k. so he didn't chose the bit or put it in his mouth himself, i did, but i didn't intend for his mouth to be damaged either

the later posts, however, had lifted my spirits somewhat.

Obviously i have a pony with a problem, (or is it me) nothing new there ill start as best i can from the beginning to see any of you can help me further, this does not mean that im not grateful for any of the suggestions that people have posted!

Toddy is a 16 year old Cremello Connemmara X gelding! who ive owned for almost 11 years now, i bought him from a riding school where he'd been for 9 months! he was just unsuitable for the kids to ride! He has a headshaking problem which is most prevalant in the summer and he wears a fly net which works fairly well.

the bit i had used at the weekend was a pinchless french link
3 ring dutch gag type, fitted correctly, 1 wrinkle on his mouth, he did not however have a noseband! because i didn't have one, he was mouthing the bit and foamed & became wet on it, which is very unusual for him, he is normally dry mouthed, hence the fact i cannot use happy mouth bits as they chaff him terrible. Once hed got himself into a stew after a fast canter, he wouldn't settle and jogged and pulled and leaned all the way home roughly 5 miles! I tried sitting deep using my legs and half hats, i tried dropping the reins and letting go of the contact, this resulted in his head droping to the floor and practically dragging his nose along!

In the school he is a good boy, and does listen to aids, even though he doesn't work in a correct outline! i can walk trot & canter and downward transitions without a tug of war breaking out!

The bit i was using prior to this i felt after earlier posts a myler short shank combi bit was maybe too strong and had outlived its purpose as he was evading the contact by coming behind the bit, and then leaning and pushing through his neck and chest!

I rode the other day in a loose ring french link and although in the school environment he was relatively well behaved, got a little wizzy in canter, but still listened to my aids! on a hack out i would have been out of control!

In the past we have ridden successfully in a hackamore! unfortunately this clever old stick has learnt over time to evade this, after a 12 month break i tried it again, only to be carted round the field on a schooling session!

Ive used straight bars, mullen mouths, all of which encourage him to lean terribly!

Pelhams hes not keen on or Kimblewicks either as he seems to dislike the poll pressure or the curb not 100% sure which but he tuckshis head in and comes behind the bit in these! the pelhams ive tried are mullen mouth & ported!

American gag was tried too, but was far too severe for him and he threw his head high in the air to avoid any contact whatsoever!

My thoughts at the moment are i would like a bit for my boy that hes happy with and that im confident he has respect for & myself!

although i know certain people here will disagree i though maybe a cherry roller (as its a snaffle) would help as i understand that they cannot take a hold or lean on these!

if theres anything you feel is missing in order for you to help me please dont hesitate!

ive tried the bit bank, but there suggesting very expensive bits, that are similar to american gags and im not convinced it would work and to be perfectly honest havent got £70 odd to spend out on a bit at the moment, when i think its just another gimicky type bit! im not saying that if it worked i wouldn't buy it, but they do seem to try and recommend unusual or expesive bits! maybe thats just my experience!

His tack, back and teeth etc., are all fine! this behaviour in Toddy is Toddy in the norm! a bit will work for a while then im back here again at square one
 
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I have already suggested this but would try a waterford or cherry roller if hes locking onto the bit...rode my lad in a waterford on Sunday and was a really good boy on both long fast canters....came up nice and light and really didnt need it too much but felt in control which as he tanks off occasionally I need to be...however my lad is not really a set in ways puller, just a gormless irish lad with gangly legs and a mind that wanders when hes behind others!!! and he never jogs-that uses energy that is best used for eating!!!:D ...
 
Joy - did you use the dutch gag with one or two reins ? Most people ride with only one set of reins - but I can really recommend riding with two, one on the snaffle ring itself.

The trouble with these energetic horses is that often the muscles start getting tired but they still want to go go go ! This may be what was behind the nose-on-the-floor thing as his neck was getting a bit tired. (I've had this happen as well).

When my mum used to hack my guy out for me (during the week) there was one ride where as you turned, he would decide it was time to trot, fast. She used to distract him with a peppermint just as he turned, and it was enough to stop the moment happening and he'd be much more sensible. So bribery can work as well ;)

Previous to being owned by us, my chap had also been through every bit possible (at the time) and arrived in a gag snaffle (to keep his head up), running martingale (to keep it down !) and drop noseband (to stop him objecting to the other two!) and still had no brakes. I ended up with him in loose ring french link snaffle for most things, and dutch gag x-country. (cavesson or no noseband - he had RAO/COPD in later years).

I am personally a big fan of loose ring french link and have ridden most of 'my' horses in it. The only pony that has something different is my mum's fell - who likes D ring snaffles for some reason (especially with rollers).
 
Hi Joy,

Have you tried any sweet iron bits? This may help him to encourage him to salivate more.

Did you ride in the 3 ring with more than one rein? Or did you use one rein on the bottom ring? If it was the latter then this will cause him to lean, as basically all you asking him to do is tuck is his head under. Often riders with a strong horse will unconciously be holding back more with their hands simply due to the tension they feel when they think they are going ot be tanked off with, and if you do this with the 3 ring gag then because fo the strong poll action all you will do is metaphorically roll his head in under him, causing him to lean more as his weight is redistributed. If you do try the 3 ring gag again then try it with two sets of reins. If you don't like them then just accept they're a necessary evil and eventually you will get used to them.

You say that he went well in the myler short shank combi bit but eventually tucked himself in behind the bit? And that he evaded the hackamore? It sounds a lot like you could be hanging on too much onto his mouth/nose. If you're frightened or wary of being pulled about or taken a hold of then it's very easily done. The problem with this though, is that eventually you'll find you have this problem with all the bits you ride in and will have to keep upping the level of bit as Toddy leans more and more on your hands. In fact, I'd be pretty willing to bet if I was a betting girl that his leaning is a result of your tension rather than he is trying to be strong or difficult. To help overcome this I would recommend a series of lunge lessons on him working on freeing up your hands, arms and shoulders so that you don't feed that tenision down into his mouth and shoulders. I think you'd really benefit from this and if you can do this and combine it with your general schooling outside of lessons, then you should notice an improvement in his way of going over time.

Going back to bits, the nice part about a myler short shank combi bit is that they can be as strong or a mild as you want. If you feel he is tucking himself behind the bit, then raise your hands ever so slightly to encourage him to bring his head up and release your hold on the reins - don't let go, just loosen your hold and push him forward into the bit.

Reading between the lines though, I think the big problem you have is that you are holding back to much and are probably not even aware that this is happening. If you have access to a school then I would try and get into the habit of either lunging him or giving him a good long canter round the school before you go out on a hack to get some of his fizz out, or plan to hack out after you've schooled so that he is more relaxed and a little bit knackered and so that hopefully you will have a less speedy hack and as a result be more relaxed too. Unfortunately you'll never win a battle between him leaning and you pulling back on him just because he is so much stronger than you and it sounds like you have tried all the bit options somewhere along the lines - may be it's time for a different approach? ;)
 
hi joy,i havent posted on your threads before but i felt i have to as i totally know where your comming from. iv had two horses who seem to both be like toddy!one was a 14.2hhh tb, who was very very fast and wizzy, but would go either very above or very below the bit to evade it. the best bit for him was a sprenger one. i cant remember what it was called but it had the lozenge mouthpiece and then a small ring at the top, attatched outside the main ring, for the cheek straps, and then a half moon sort of ring inside the main ring at the bottom for the reins. it isnt too severe but works alongthe same lines as the gag that he seems to like. the other horse was just incredibly strong, would get her head down and go like a rocket, she also wouldnt turn right at all! the new mikmar bit works like a dream on her, it looks really weird, but it does work! just some ideas.
 
AJB thanks for your kind words of support! glad im not the only one in this kind of position! ive tried a waterford in the past and it was unsuccessful! i did think about a cherry roller for the simple fact its a snaffle (so failry mild) but the rollers may prevent him leaning or taking hold of it

CVB - i only used one set of reins, i have small hands and far too uncoordinated to use two sets, i put the reins on the 2nd ring down rather than the snaffle ring
 
I'm not entirely sure that this is a bit problem since you've tried so many.

You say that half halts and letting go of the reins didn't work (apart from dropping his head when you let go of the reins, what did he do exactly?), have you tried pushing him into the bridle when he starts to pull and fuss? It takes abit of guts, especially if you're going like the clappers, but it has helped me. Also, if he jogs, push him into a proper trot rather than let him keep jogging or nag him to come back to walk. He'll soon learn its harder to trot properly than it is to walk sensibly without having to jog.

Bebe can get a bit lively and excited and a year ago I was having problems with her taking off and refusing to stop. I started having lessons and my instructor taught me that even when she feels massively out of control, I still need to use my leg to keep her hindquarters engaged. Part of the problem when she gets fast is that her hind-end is 3 miles away from her front and she has to go faster to stay upright. She wasn't like this in the school either, just out hacking when she got a bit excited.

Since I've got up the confidence to do this I've found that Bebe is a million times better out hacking and she hasn't run off with me for a long, long time. If we gallop I need a long stretch as it takes a fair distance to bring her back (she's very fast and flattens out so I have to reconnect her front and back end) but it's generally not bad manners or lack of training when this happens, just exuberance and physics! Canter is the speed I want her to go at and can be very steady and collected to quite fast or lengthened.

It seems that you're reluctant to do this but I do think that until you can get something sorted out, you should stick to slow hacks as otherwise you're just setting yourself up for trouble. Can you get an instructor to hack out with you so they can assess the situation as it happens rather than rely on your feedback (which, if you're anything like me, won't be as informative as it needs to be once you're back from the ride)?

No matter what, I personally wouldn't ride whilst he has a cut mouth unless you can use a hackamore. Even a small cut will be painful if the bit is touching it.
 
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