Using bute long term

[Mary Poppins]

Does anyone use bute long term?

This may be a treatment option (the only treatment option!) for Ben. He has low grade lameness in his right hind which is currently being investigated. I am currently riding him daily on bute (under vets orders) and this makes him sound. He is on a high dose at the moment (3 per day) but he is a VERY big horse. He is going for a bone scan, but regardless of the outcome the vet has said that the likely course of treatment will be to continue to ride him on a reduced level of bute (perhaps 1.5 per day), for the rest of his life.

We briefly talked about side effects which he said are rare. As Ben lives out he is unlikely to develop ulcers and it tends to be horses who already have kidney issues that develop these problems.

This means no more competitions for us, which I can cope with. But as long as a bone scan doesn't show anything sinister, it would mean that he can carry on pretty much as normal (bar the dressage comps). The alternative is to retire him, but the vet says that it is movement that will keep him going for longer. Retirement will lead to stiffness and lack of mobility much sooner than if he continued to be ridden on bute. He is only 14 so not exactly old.

Any views? What would you do?

 

[Jessey]

I think it depends on the issue, for me I won't bute to hide something like a tendon problem just to get 2 or 3 years out of them, but for something like bone spavin where the exercise helps the hock to fuse which in turn reduces pain in the long run then I would do it medium term, or for arthritis where exercise means they need less pain meds than they would if they were to stand in the field and it could be kept at a low dose and/or combined with other anti inflams (poss herbal or other drugs without the side effects of bute). Though having said that, over 1 a day I would not really consider a low dose (Jess had half every other day to get her over the hump when I was doing her rehab and I felt that was low enough to accept, but I am not sure I would have been happy to do even that long term without knowing exactly what was going on), though my neds are much smaller than yours so perhaps that's perspective.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I think it depends on the issue, for me I won't bute to hide something like a tendon problem just to get 2 or 3 years out of them, but for something like bone spavin where the exercise helps the hock to fuse which in turn reduces pain in the long run then I would do it medium term, or for arthritis where exercise means they need less pain meds than they would if they were to stand in the field and it could be kept at a low dose and/or combined with other anti inflams (poss herbal or other drugs without the side effects of bute). Though having said that, over 1 a day I would not really consider a low dose (Jess had half every other day to get her over the hump when I was doing her rehab and I felt that was low enough to accept, but I am not sure I would have been happy to do even that long term without knowing exactly what was going on), though my neds are much smaller than yours so perhaps that's perspective.

Well hopefully we will know what is going on when he goes for his bone scan. I think the vet strongly suspects that the problem is related to his joints somewhere. He does have bone spavin which is fusing on it's own, but is likely to progress to the other hock in due course. He just doesn't know at this stage if the bone spavin is causing the lameness.

I guess there just isn't much they can do for joint problems? If he has arthritic changes in any of his other joints there are not many treatment options available. Is it kinder for him to ride him on bute where he can keep moving and have an active life, retire him for field rest which the vet says will make him worse or have him PTS? He is a happy horse and not suffering in any other way. My gut says to ride him on the bute until a point comes where he tells me he is finding it a struggle. It's all academic at the moment but I am trying to prepare myself for all outcomes. It's a lot to get my head round.

 

[Kite_Rider]

Just musing here but have you tried something like Devils claw?
Belle has one dose every other day and is like a different horse now, she wasn’t lame though, just stiff, vets think it’s arthritis and the devils claw keeps her comfortable along with being ridden gently most days.
We have discussed Danilo’s and bute but vets agree while this is working for her well stick with it, she is 21 now though.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Just musing here but have you tried something like Devils claw?
Belle has one dose every other day and is like a different horse now, she wasn’t lame though, just stiff, vets think it’s arthritis and the devils claw keeps her comfortable along with being ridden gently most days.
We have discussed Danilo’s and bute but vets agree while this is working for her well stick with it, she is 21 now though.

No, this was only discussed yesterday so I haven't considered anything else. I have to say that I am a little sceptical about supplements and alternative solutions but it isn't something that I have thought about before so I need to open my mind to other things I think. My initial thoughts are that it won't be enough to keep him comfortable. But I actually have no idea what Devils Claw is?

 

[Lissie]

What @Jessey said. As a medium term thing on a low does ok. I don't think I'd feel happy buting a every day horse to say just hacking for example I think if they can't happy hack without pain relief then I'd retire and this is what I did with my older horse who has ringbone.

Obviously each case/horse is so individual what's right for one isn't for another.

 

[Bodshi]

Is it kinder for him to ride him on bute where he can keep moving and have an active life, retire him for field rest which the vet says will make him worse or have him PTS? He is a happy horse and not suffering in any other way. My gut says to ride him on the bute until a point comes where he tells me he is finding it a struggle. It's all academic at the moment but I am trying to prepare myself for all outcomes. It's a lot to get my head round.

I have thought about this long and hard too. Raf doesn't need medication for his 'mild arthritic changes' yet - just for me to avoid certain activities and be aware of how he is feeling. But there will come a time I'm sure when he needs more support. I don't want to pts when he is otherwise happy and healthy and I don't like the idea of retiring him either - as you say it could make him worse and also he enjoys human company and having things to do. He gets bored in a field (unless there's loads of good grass of course) and doesn't get on with other horses.

For me the only option is to keep him comfortable for as long as possible on painkillers until the time comes when it starts to be a struggle. I don't worry about the length of his life as much as the quality - I don't think horses have any expectation of how long their life should be and anyway Raf's life may be limited due to his Cushings.

I have no doubt that I'm influenced by the fact that my OH is on long term meds for his back and he manages very well on them. If he forgets to take his tablets for a day he's in agony and not much use for anything. My OH of course can talk and express the fact that this is how he chooses to manage his life. Raf can't do that and I may be completely wrong to compare my OH's situation to Raf's but it's just how it is.

ETA - should have also said that Jack is retired on bute every other day to keep him field sound, due to his arthritis. He's turned out every day with his companions and will be out 24/7 as soon as the land is ready. He's perfectly happy and enjoying his life - he's a completely different horse to Raf. OH keeps threatening to have him pts (because it's so expensive to keep him on full livery for nothing) but he won't go through with it. If Jack developed any other issues or seemed to be struggling he'd be gone, but he stubbornly remains very happy and healthy on his danilon lol.

 

[Mary Poppins]

What @Jessey said. As a medium term thing on a low does ok. I don't think I'd feel happy buting a every day horse to say just hacking for example I think if they can't happy hack without pain relief then I'd retire and this is what I did with my older horse who has ringbone.

Obviously each case/horse is so individual what's right for one isn't for another.

But what is retirement made the horse worse? Some horses (like Ben) can live out but not actually move very much. Retirement and arthritis do not go well together.

Any also why wouldn't you bute for hacking? Where is the harm? If the horse is comfortable then why would you hesitate? The side effects are low and if it makes the horse comfortable then where is the harm? I'm not having a go at you, I am just playing devils advocate. I'm trying to see things from different points of view.

Is the use of bute any different from injecting with steroids for example? Practically every single dressage horse I know has had steroid injections into their hocks. This seems socially acceptable but the use of bute is frowned upon? Surely the constant use of steroids has to be worse than bute? Again, I'm not having a go at you (you didn't even raise this point). I am just trying to work things out.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I have thought about this long and hard too. Raf doesn't need medication for his 'mild arthritic changes' yet - just for me to avoid certain activities and be aware of how he is feeling. But there will come a time I'm sure when he needs more support. I don't want to pts when he is otherwise happy and healthy and I don't like the idea of retiring him either - as you say it could make him worse and also he enjoys human company and having things to do. He gets bored in a field (unless there's loads of good grass of course) and doesn't get on with other horses.

For me the only option is to keep him comfortable for as long as possible on painkillers until the time comes when it starts to be a struggle. I don't worry about the length of his life as much as the quality - I don't think horses have any expectation of how long their life should be and anyway Raf's life may be limited due to his Cushings.

I have no doubt that I'm influenced by the fact that my OH is on long term meds for his back and he manages very well on them. If he forgets to take his tablets for a day he's in agony and not much use for anything. My OH of course can talk and express the fact that this is how he chooses to manage his life. Raf can't do that and I may be completely wrong to compare my OH's situation to Raf's but it's just how it is.

Yes, I agree with you. My dad takes a cocktail of drugs everyday to keep him alive and pain free. He is happy and at the moment has a very good quality of life. Perhaps I am influenced by this as well. The development of drugs means a prolonged life for humans but there is a different opinion when it comes to using them on animals.

I am coming to terms that Ben's life will perhaps be shorter than I would have planned. He is a very big horse to start with, and their bodies will wear out much quicker compared with a Shetland pony. I am all for quality of life with him. I want him to be happy, alert and to enjoy himself. A shorter active life with the help of some bute has surely got to be better than stiff field retirement just because it is on paper the ideological thing to do.

 

[Jessey]

Any also why wouldn't you bute for hacking? Where is the harm? If the horse is comfortable then why would you hesitate? The side effects are low and if it makes the horse comfortable then where is the harm? I'm not having a go at you, I am just playing devils advocate. I'm trying to see things from different points of view.

For me personally if the exercise, be it hacking or whatever, causes the condition to deteriorate faster than it would without exercise then I won't bute to do it (in the case of arthritis I think it is the opposite, in that steady exercise tends to slow the onset of discomfort). I just see that as knowingly shortening the horses life for my own enjoyment, I do appreciate that horses don't have any preconceived expectation on how long their life will be but I don't think I have any right to do that.

That's just the easiest way I can describe it and don't mean any offence to anyone that chooses otherwise.

I take pain meds regularly, but they are not to hide the pain from something that will get worse because of the things I do, if that were the case I would have to seriously consider what I did and possibly stop doing things that would expedite the breakdown.

 

[Kite_Rider]

http://www.horse-advice.com/equi-therapy/herbal/devils-claw.shtml

Here you go @Mary Poppins
All I know is it works well for Belle, that plus hacking keeps her more than happy and has my vets ok too.

 

[Mary Poppins]

http://www.horse-advice.com/equi-therapy/herbal/devils-claw.shtml

Here you go @Mary Poppins
All I know is it works well for Belle, that plus hacking keeps her more than happy and has my vets ok too.

Thank you. I am supposed to be working right now but will have a good read later on.

 

[Trewsers]

I use bute (Danilon) long term. It's personal choice. It keeps her more comfortable in her retirement. I suspect a lot of people do not agree with it - I've had comments before about it, but both my vets agree for her the low dose is fine. I don't want to offend anyone and get a battery of comments on it, but to me, I'd rather have her comfy and if that means danilon so be it,

 

[KP nut]

I would have no hesitation whatsoever in medicating long-term if that was in the best interests of the horse.

Buting to mask pain so I could ride while hastening a decline would NOT be in the best interests of the horse but your situation is totally different. Well it is the opposite really - medicating to make the horse comfortable so you can ride and slow down any deterioration! Plus you need Ben to work to keep his weight down. And lots of horses are happier with a job to do.

Medicating a retired horse who appears perfectly happy but is not sound without help also seems totally appropriate.

You can't have a hard and fast rule about these things - you need to weigh up each unique situation and make the best call you can. And as you are the world's most conscientious owner you will ALWAYS make the right call! Don't doubt yourself and don't worry what other people might think.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

Oh my ten pence worth. Chanter was on Bute one day a bute substance the next since the age of 14 we carried on dressage and hacking until he was 16 then dropped to hacking. Then then retired at 22ish.

His is arthritis the movement helped and Bute eased the pain allowing me to keep him moving.

Once retired I dropped all but turmeric and buteless this kept him field sound until this winter.

This winter as you know he went down hill vet advised two a day for a week or two then try dropping to one. Over the winter he has gone from two to three to point four. Now back down to one at 27 I will not put him through another winter.

To me I will Bute up to two a day to keep him comfortable but not above that.

You can try a mix like I did it is test and adjust but it worked for chanter

 

[Skib]

I am very sorry Ben is ill Mary P.
As you know, I shared and hacked an elderly horse who was on medication. My comment here is that with horses who are not 100% fit, one needs to be flexible and keep on being flexible. The hacking was good for her at one point, but at another being slightly lame, she was just turned away for the summer on the off chance - and came back sound the next autumn.
Yet when she was eventually retired completely she was not happy at all to be left in a field. She would have been happier i.m.o to go on being hacked in walk by me. But it wasnt my decision.
But it looked to me as if, just as with old people, she was having the latest drugs both for arthritis and for cushings. Like Ben, she was a horse that was particularly loved. And I guess you have to be kind to yourself and to Ben and take how both of you feel into account. It isnt something you can decide and get all sorted out in advance.

 

[Lissie]

@Mary Poppins it just didn't sit right with me. Sorry I just have a difference of opinion. I could of buted my old boy and carried on riding and hacking him instead he's retired out 24/7 and doesn't need any pain meds. But his condition is different to Ben's and if I was you and I knew the ins and out of what was wrong I may make a different decision. You do what's right for you and the horse at the end of the day, what's right for one won't be right for another.

 

[carthorse]

@Mary Poppins in your situation I wouldn't have any problem with buting daily and keeping in a sensible level of work. Personally I'd rather go for bute than herbal alternatives since the effectiveness and potential side effects are known, but that's my choice. I have used some of the herbal options for Jim, but that was because his gut couldn't handle bute (& for that reason devils claw & turmeric were also not options).

I'd also do all I could management wise, so he'd be rugged to keep him warm & dry, I'd discuss joint supplements with the vet & try to control his weight. Regular light work avoiding poor surfaces as much as possible & I'd talk to my farrier to see if a change in foot balance could help. This would be in addition to bute though, not instead of it.

 

[Mary Poppins]

It isnt something you can decide and get all sorted out in advance.

Thank you @Skib. This was what the vet was saying I will need to do. He said to start on 3 bute a day so I remember how he feels when he is completely sound and then reduce the dose down to 2 and hopefully 1.5 per day if he still feels the same. It’s all about trusting my instincts and listening to him.

 

[Mary Poppins]

And as you are the world's most conscientious owner you will ALWAYS make the right call! Don't doubt yourself and don't worry what other people might think.

I don’t worry about what people think as such, but I do doubt my ability to know when he is lame. People on my yard are still telling me there is nothing wrong with him and the lameness is part of his normal movement. I disagree with them. When he was on the Bute he felt sound, but when he came off it he felt lame. My vet has been about 6 times now and each time he has told me Ben is lame. It seems other people on the yard can’t see it, but I know what I feel and I trust my vet. He isn’t hopping lame but he definitely isn’t right. I need to have more faith and stop questioning myself.