Overbending/going behind the bit

L

Laura+Phantom

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Jan 25, 2004
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My new forest gelding has been coming on really well with regards to accepting and seeking a contact in walk, even when we're hacking.

However in the school on monday, I had him doing lovely 20m circles in trot (big improvement!) but as I had a reasonable contact on the rein, he was going overbent and behind the bit. I tried to keep a consistent rein contact and use more leg to try and push him 'into the bridle', which made a slight improvement, but then he would go above the bit again. I realise it's because he's not sure of what he should be doing and he can't be using himself correctly but what else should I be doing to correct this?

His paces are really active and he always tracks up and has a short pony stride, so it's hard to ask him to be more active behind without him just speeding up. I need lessons on him, but in the meantime, any suggestions?

He's ridden in a cavesson noseband and french link eggbutt snaffle if that helps, though i'm going to try my loose ring lozenge bit next time.
 
Have you tried using your seat to control his speed? I might be misunderstanding, but the way you've written makes it sound like the contact you were using is a little too strong for him (which I think you've realised). If you can get him to listen to your seat then you shouldn't need such a strong contact and (hopefully) he won't try and hide behind it :)
 
The thing is, my idea of a reasonable contact is my old instructors idea of a washing line! I was always being told off for having a pathetic contact, so if anything, my rein contact is too soft! I tend to do lots of mini half halts to slow him and slow my rising down to slow down the trot.

Thanks, I will try and use my seat more to control the speed though, i'm sure I could have been using it more! My other mare slows from just closing the thigh, so i'll try that as well...
 
I believe it was Mehitabel on a recent thread that said that problems become more evident as you go up in the gaits. Just because you're not seeing anything in walk doesnt mean there isnt anything there.

How long have you had him?

The obvious questions are teeth, bit, bridle. I'll assume you've looked into those.

If he's ever had negative experiences prior to coming to you, you'll find residual issues with him accepting the bit/contact. What have you been doing to get him improved at the walk? I'd try replacating that in the other gaits too.

There is an exercise that you can do that really gets the horse looking for the bridle. But, if there are any mental hang ups based on fear or pain, it'll be a hard task to accomplish. I can explain it to you but I feel exploring the why's are more important than the how's right now. :)
 
Totally agree with Tootsie on doing basic checks.

LAUZ45 said:
The thing is, my idea of a reasonable contact is my old instructors idea of a washing line! I was always being told off for having a pathetic contact, so if anything, my rein contact is too soft!
Click to expand...
So why do you believe your instructor was right and you were wrong? You can go too far in either direction. If you can feel your boy mouthing the bit on (your) light contact then you can bet he can feel your aids ;).....
 
I've had him since he was 18 months old, and he'll be 12 in June. I've never ridden him in a contact before because we have only been hacking out until recently. I did my college work experience at a livery yard and had some serious lessons and rode strapping 16.2hh warmbloods, having to work towards getting them working correctly and being on the bit, so I transferred it to Phantom, but waaay lighter. If I rode him with the amount of contact I was made to have there, he'd probably fall over backwards! That's not to say that working correctly is all about the rein contact, I know how much leg etc is involved, that's just an example!

All the checks have been done because I was trying to find out why he was napping (he doesn't anymore - it was behavioural). No one else has ridden him without me being there, and he's not had any unpleasant experiences with his mouth/rein contact that I can think of. Tried bitless - totally works for my other mare but not for him, he goes wonky and becomes distracted and spooky. Is the bit possibly too harsh? Should I try a happy mouth?

I've tried giving him the reins and it stops him overbending but then he's not listening, he's quite green with his school work but he's willing to try for me and a fast learner.
 
It's gonna be hard to tell without seeing you ride and feeling the horse for myself.

You might just plainly have an experience issue, since he's so green.

If so, then dont' correct anything. Let him explore where having his head works best. If your contact is constantly changing he wont learn to trust the contact (or it'll take much longer). Half halt with your seat for awhile, not with the reins.

As he begins to trust things a bit more in all the gaits, then you can begin to show him all the levels of communication the bit serves.

Correcting being behind the bit is harder to correct than above the bit. Concentrate really hard on not giving him a reason to go behind it for now. Ride on the buckle if you have to :D
 
PS, I took a look at your photos in your signature and the ridden ones look nice to me. He doesnt look above or behind in any of those. If I had to say, some of the standing still ones look a tad like your reins aren't forgiving. So, I'll ask, and its a really really important question that so many of us are guilty of, do you readily release the rein after he gives you what you want under saddle?

Some horses will tuck behind the bit if they never get any release from it. This is completely seperate from 'contact' per say because even the lightest contact can be static.
 
I have to say, having is a consistent rein contact has always been my weak point, i'd like to think that I release them when appropriate, but it's probably not always spot on :eek:

I think I know the pic you mean..the dressage one? That pic, although he's not overbent, shows how he bends at the jaw, which can turn into him tucking his head in even more. I try and keep my elbows soft, although my arms do look really stiff in that photo! (He was whipping round trying to kick every other horse in sight)

I will try and forget about having a rein contact for now, and take your advice, I think it is probably up to him to figure it out but I can see how i'm not helping matters! I'll try and concentrate on having him work from behind and at the right speed using my body and legs and less of the rein and see if that helps, I shall let you know how we get on!

Thanks :D
 
Oh I also have to say Tootsie, I love your signature quote, i've written it on my board in my tack room, it gives me hope!

He has been notoriously difficult in the past...
 
Well he was very good when I school him on friday, I rode with a really light contact and did 4 loop serpentines and circles using only my body and legs to turn, and he was excellent. We got some good steps of leg yield too, and he didn't overbend once. Schooling again tomorrow so hopefully the good work will continue. (Ahem we'll forget about the 'terrifying' incident with a pig on the way there!)

Tried the loose ring lozenge bit - seems okay with it but wasn't as wet in the mouth as with the french link eggbutt, even though it's a 'warmer' metal. Might stick with the eggbutt...
 
overbent

Im no expert but i see alot of horses leaning down into the bit, on the forehand and behind the bit, their faces not vertical. Is this coming from the trainers? People don't seem to be correcting the horse out of this position which i don't understand.

My horse offered me that overbent head position when i used a bit with him to begin with ( i broke him bitless but had problems too as he discovered i couldn't steer very well!), he would put his head down, all round in the neck and behind the bit, but he cannot hold himself up like that. I had to discourage him by giving him back the reins and moving him forward. I'm inclined to agree that your trainer is wrong to insist on a strong contact yet if your horse isn't used to you riding like that and is unsure what to do.

I really admire the classical training and the self carriage the horses have.
In "Classical Dressage 1 (The school of aids)" by Philippe Carl (who rode in the Cadre Noir) he shows how he teaches the young horse before it is even ridden that it must not ever put it's head down into this position, he says that overbending is the worst thing the horse can learn to do.

If only non-riders realised the amount of thought and concentration we put into riding! I never tried to do anything so hard and so rewarding!
Good luck!
 
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