Loosing the will power with my youngsters confusing behaviour!

[chestNUTTER.]

Hello lovely people!

Currently at my whits end with my youngster, and after reading some good threads on this forum I thought I would join the community and turning to you for any inspiration/experience/advice. May be a bit of a long one sorry....

Background of my darling, rising 4 chestnut thoroughbred. Polo bred, but got too big. So he's been passed around a little until he ended up with his owner prior to me.

Given to me 6 months ago after a lady who had never ridden, got him as a 'first horse', sat on him and he bucked her off. He was sent away to be broken, but when I got him he was kept in a zombie state through confinement in a stable and being underfed. I swept him off to a lovely calm small yard, with plenty of turnout and got him to a good condition. Slowly worked with him on the ground, very loving boy who took everything in his stride, and got to the point where we were going on gentle hacks a few times a week. Problems with teeth arose, and we needed a new saddle so he had some time off whilst we got him sorted.

Since then we have little bursts aprox. 2 weeks in length of awful behaviour, followed by going back to being an absolute angel. When he is good, he is absolutely perfect, goes off the voice on the lunge, accepts the long reins and loves to work (if not a bit reluctant to walk in a more forwards manner, but this is common in youngsters anyway).

I've learnt from this horse that when he is uncomfortable, in pain or unhappy about something he communicates it very well- He rears, and broncs (in the school or off to the field), or is just generally very uncooperative, and as soon as said 'problem' is fixed he's back to being a happy little donkey and getting on with life.

HOWEVER, these little 'outbursts' we keep having and becoming slightly unmanageable and are knocking my confidence, and well as motivation!! Every time we get to a good place, we seem to have an outburst period out of nowhere. He's still gentle and lovely to me, I have no problems with him in the stable, or leading, apart from the occasional bronc on the way to the field (however this is because he wants to roll). But when we go into the school to do any work at all, he just want to roll!! The horse that is normally lunged without a whip as he is so responsive, ignored every attempt of mine to get him to not roll! If I manage to stop him he rears up or broncs round the school. This happens when we try to move forward too... be it lunging, long reining and even free schooling. He kicks out, and broncs around, with the odd rear. Now if I did not know my boy I would think we was taking the absolute PEE out of me. But he's extremely submissive to me, he has an outburst of saying 'no mum no!' and then turns into me, bows his head, and follows me around.

He has had some tight patched on his back, around his withers, and we have Physio. I am feeling like this is a pain response of his, that something just isn't feeling right but nobody has any idea what!! I'm reluctant to go down the vets route... Could he possibly be having growing pains? He is still bum high?? The rolling is obsessive, and he doesn't do it when he's not having an outburst period..... So I really do not believe it is behaviour, due to his mannerisms and attitude the rest of the time. I will add, he always turns into me and lowers his head, rather than away (if his rear end was near me I would be gone!!).

He honestly scares me a little when I'm in an enclosed space with him broncing around and rearing upright. As well as that, my motivation with him is lacking, as we just keep going back to this behaviour, It's heart breaking as he can be such an absolute angel. I do not want to put it down to behaviour and loose the relationship we have built through 'forcing power' as is often recommended.

Sorry that this is a long, rambling post! I've tried to explain myself, but please feel free to ask anything I haven't covered! Any opinions, advice or experience appreciated!

Thanks!

A very stressed mummy and an orange pony who wishes he could talk!

 

[Jessey]

Welcome to NR

My first thought would be to check for lice, that kind of obsessive got to roll right now no matter what behaviour is how I've seen lice-y neds get. It also fits with your time line as the new lice hatch about monthly and the adults die off after a couple of weeks and this is just the time of year for them. Honestly even if you can't see them, it doesn't hurt to treat anyway if there is any suspicion, don't rely on the fact that no others have them as a guide, my mini seems to find them every spring but my mare never gets them and they are glued together normally.

 

[chestNUTTER.]

Welcome to NR

My first thought would be to check for lice, that kind of obsessive got to roll right now no matter what behaviour is how I've seen lice-y neds get. It also fits with your time line as the new lice hatch about monthly and the adults die off after a couple of weeks and this is just the time of year for them. Honestly even if you can't see them, it doesn't hurt to treat anyway if there is any suspicion, don't rely on the fact that no others have them as a guide, my mini seems to find them every spring but my mare never gets them and they are glued together normally.

Hadn't thought of that at all! I will investigate.... however he is fully clipped, and not 'itchy' at all through, he never scratches himself, bites at anything or rubs up against us! And his coat is lovely....if a bit flakey currently. How would you recommend treating? Never dealt with them before, so don't have the foggiest!

 

[Jessey]

I deosected my new mini last week, I find that the most effective but louse powder from the tack shop can be okay if they aren't riddled it could also just be from not enough opportunities to roll if turnout has been limited or general itchyness from coat starting to shed perhaps???

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

What are you feeding him. I own a ten year old ginger tb that I got as a four year old.

I will always suggest ulcers more so as you say he had been passed through a lot of hands before you.

As a start I would cut out sugar from his diet and look at reducing hard feed and change to ab lib hay with as much turn out you can give.

My boy has been horrid this winter the minute I turned him back out 24/7 he has calmed down a bit. But like your on the lunge he bucks and tears until he had got it out then settled to work.

Tbs are hard work really hard tbh it’s he is the hardest horse I have ever owned goes from amazing I love this boy more than anything to someone anyone have him.

Well done for taking him on it sounds like there is a lot of issues there to deal with. I’ve been through most so if I can help I will

 

[domane]

Wow! He's been through a lot in his young life! I suspect a lot of his behaviout is adolescent testing, if he is still only 3. A lot of horses go through it at some point but most are settled by the time they're 8.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

Wow! He's been through a lot in his young life! I suspect a lot of his behaviout is adolescent testing, if he is still only 3. A lot of horses go through it at some point but most are settled by the time they're 8.

Please tell this to ginger lol

 

[domane]

Please tell this to ginger lol

I did say "most"

 

[Mary Poppins]

Why are you reluctant for your horse to see a vet? Did you get him vetted when you purchased him?

You say that he is a horse who is kind and willing, but communicates to you when there is a problem. If he is broncing and rearing I would suggest he is trying to tell you that there is a problem - you even say yourself that you suspect his behaviour to be pain related. I know vets are expensive but is it really fair on this horse to carry on working him until any problems have been ruled out by the vet? A simple bute trial should give you an indication if the problem is pain related. Give him bute for 2 to 3 weeks daily and see if there is an improvement in his behaviour. If he stops broncing and rearing, or at least reduces it, you can be pretty sure that pain is causing the issue.

 

[carthorse]

I'm afraid I'd be inclined to get a vet out & explain all this to him, there are some odd patterns here that I'd want checking out. Like @OwnedbyChanter I've had a lot of experience with ulcers & I think that's something I'd want checking - you don't need to scope (though it is the most accurate test), ask them to test his droppings. If he isn't insured be very clear about this with your vet before they start spending loads of your money! I wouldn't go on a bute trial until ulcers have been ruled out, bute can make them far worse if they're present.

Personally I'd say with how much upheaval he's had & still being young I would keep him out of the school as much as possible & instead take him hacking. Keep it relaxed, don't ask for schooling on hacks, and let him find his balance, confidence & strengthen up. I'd also try to keep his work regular, 15 minutes 5 times a week every week is far better than an hour once a week or a couple of weeks on followed by a couple of weeks off.

 

[chestNUTTER.]

Thanks for all your reply guys; here are a few comments in repose to people:


- He was already on no hard feed and ad-lib hay.

- I was reluctant to have a vet as it's not consistent so it's a waste of money as by the time the vet is free to come out, he's back to being a donkey! I'd like to add that money is NOT an issue when my horses are in need!!

- He doesn't have ulcers in the slightest- Checked and tested.

- When he's going through his period of being a royal pain, no work is done with him at all- I'm not that mean!!

HOWEVER, we have come to a conclusion (Vet, Physio and Myself) That he is simply taking growing really badly as he was s malnourished when I got him, that now he's shooting up in a monthly/bi-monthyl cycle and really doesn't enjoy it. He's going into summer fields 24/7 for a few months in may to continue growing and maturing mentally as planned! So we'll see where we end up

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

[carthorse]

I think, given his background & age, a few months turned away is probably a very good idea.

I still think I'd want a vet out though, particularly if this behaviour continues when he comes back from his holiday. Is there no pattern to the behaviour at all? Does it tend to start showing after a few weeks in work, or when it starts to show does it continue for a few days? That would give you a window in which you could get the vet out. If there's absolutely no pattern then I'd start to wonder if it was behavioural rather than physical.

I'm assuming that although you'd said somewhere that you didn't want to get the vet involved you actually have since he's been declared clear of ulcers?

 

[chestNUTTER.]

I think, given his background & age, a few months turned away is probably a very good idea.

I still think I'd want a vet out though, particularly if this behaviour continues when he comes back from his holiday. Is there no pattern to the behaviour at all? Does it tend to start showing after a few weeks in work, or when it starts to show does it continue for a few days? That would give you a window in which you could get the vet out. If there's absolutely no pattern then I'd start to wonder if it was behavioural rather than physical.

I'm assuming that although you'd said somewhere that you didn't want to get the vet involved you actually have since he's been declared clear of ulcers?

He was cleared fro Ulcers as soon as I got him.

The vet and physio have BOTH been involved with him, and both agreed that it is him growing, not accepting the pain, and as he's growing so quickly and unevenly his pelvis is tilting. He has physio every 4-6 weeks anyway, and this will continue through his field holiday! I have had my vet for years, and he's always been very brutally honest with me, and he agreed that there is no point exploring anything until he has finished growing or unless it becomes a consistent problem of his, as they probably won't be able to get anywhere at all.

If there are issues when he's finished getting bum high then we will re-evaluate. The pattern is now very clearly: Eating more (I can tell because he has ad-lib hay in nets and it always disappears when he's in this phase rather than having a whole large net left), Getting bum high & Being an ass because he's in pain! Now that it's been another cycle and we've put all of our notes and records together to create a history back from December it's very clear.

He's very happy currently, as he has a new big brother who is IDENTICAL to him, who he behaves to ride and lead with- so we're exploring a bit more again!

 

[newforest]

Hum my thoughts.

'The vet and physio have BOTH been involved with him, and both agreed that it is him growing, not accepting the pain, and as he's growing so quickly and unevenly his pelvis is tilting'
Then why were asking for help and at your wits end?
The vet saw him to treat the ulcers when you got him six months ago, but you have said no point getting them out since. So how is this involved?
I wouldn't want to diagnose your problem over the phone, so not sure they would either to be honest.

If he is has suddenly put on condition too quickly and he's growing you might have sore feet, laminitis, LGL. From memory the growth spurt tends to use up condition and they look a bit lanky.

 

[chestNUTTER.]

Hum my thoughts.

'The vet and physio have BOTH been involved with him, and both agreed that it is him growing, not accepting the pain, and as he's growing so quickly and unevenly his pelvis is tilting'
Then why were asking for help and at your wits end?
The vet saw him to treat the ulcers when you got him six months ago, but you have said no point getting them out since. So how is this involved?
I wouldn't want to diagnose your problem over the phone, so not sure they would either to be honest.

If he is has suddenly put on condition too quickly and he's growing you might have sore feet, laminitis, LGL. From memory the growth spurt tends to use up condition and they look a bit lanky.

I posted this on the 19th of March, so a month ago, and since then it has obviously not just been 'left'. I am not cruel. I have taken the action I thought necessary and my vet has not 'diagnosed' anything over the phone, nor has my Physio. They have been out together, and separately to see him. I was replying to this more as a thanks, this is our conclusion, than looking for help.

He also wasn't treated for ulcers, he has never had them- it was just investigating.

Thanks for your comment

 

[KP nut]

Sorry but I don't really understand this time-line.

You got him 6/7 months ago and he is still not yet 4?

His first experience of being ridden was a person who had never ridden before buying him, just getting on him and unsurprisingly being bucked off again? That makes no sense! Did she not know she had bought an unbacked 3 year old before she decided to ride him as a complete beginner?

Then he was mistreated in some way or other during or after 'breaking'.

Assuming that is all accurate and I have not got the wrong end of the stick, his earliest introductions to ridden work were traumatic at least if not abusive. Plus he may not be physically ready to be ridden anyway.

You have not had him long, he had a very unfortunate introduction to ridden work and other aspects of life with humans and he is still only 3 year old - a total baby. I would expect him to go back and forth in terms of progress. A few steps forward then a major confidence wobble. Or a major attack of the Kevins. The wobbles can tell us we are pushing ahead too fast and need to back up a few steps. The Kevins that they are finding their feet and testing out the boundaries.

I agree with others that turning away is the best option for him for both physical and emotional reasons. But when you start again perhaps you need to be more realistic about the non linear nature of educating a baby and the importance of them never discovering they can use their size and strength against us.

Also I would not assume bowing his head and following you around implies 'submission'. There are many reason he may do that and if he is broncing around you, ignoring your requests and rearing over the top of you he is not 'submissive' to you, however affectionate he might be at other times. I'd focus on clarity of communcation & clarity of expectation: clear boundaries, fair consistent handling and taking it very, very slowly when he comes back into work.

 

[KP nut]

ETA

Just to add - at this very early stage you can't really know what is typical and what is untypical for him.... some horses go through a honeymoon period and are super co-operative till they get their feet under the table a bit more and start being more challenging. So it may not be helpful to view the angelic behaviour as 'the normal him' with confusing 'not like him' behaviour in between. It is all just information from him about how he feels right now. Which will change from day to day and moment to moment let alone week to week. In my view he can't really be remotely established in any of his skills/work yet, so you can't know what is and is not 'normal' for him.