Leading and general groundwork!!!

Mary Poppins

Mary Poppins

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Oct 10, 2004
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My horse has always been difficult to lead. Since day one he has always had this terrible habit of stopping and starting when he feels like it, and planting himself when the mood takes him. He walks so terribly slowly and I constantly feel like I am dragging him everywhere.

We have been working on this and I have seen improvement through basic repetition of walk/halt/walk/halt etc. He now walks on when I ask him to, and stops when I ask him to. However, he is still so slow and it's all very half hearted on his part. He will still stop and look at something if feels like it. It's not like he has anything to be scared of - we are only walking to the field which has has done everyday for the last 2 years.

Now I have my lorry I want to do some in-hand showing with him next year, and there is no way that I will get anywhere like this.

I need some proper guidance. Please don't just tell me to do 'groundwork' - I need to know exactly what to do to get him to walk nicely by my side and stop planting. I also need to know how to teach him to trot in hand. If I chase him with a schooling whip he will do it (very half heartedly again!), but I can hardly do this in the show ring and I'm not sure it's the right way to do it anyway.

Are there any books, videos, courses etc. which could help? He is naturally laid back, but it seems that as we make huge improvements under saddle, his groundwork is being left behind and I feel clueless about how to improve it. Any ideas?
 
When W is being a pain I like to wake him up with a bit of a sharp shock

I get him feet moving quickly, spin him in circles around me and if the lead rope can touch hos bum hes not moving quick enough. Back up and then circle etc, mix it up so he isnt sure whats coming.

So id up my energy like its the most exciting game in the world, back up, circle left, walk on, halt, back up, circle right, circle left, trot on. Once hes awake and waiting for his next instruction, the energy is there for a nice forward trot.

just something that works for us
 
Dannii5691 said:
When W is being a pain I like to wake him up with a bit of a sharp shock

I get him feet moving quickly, spin him in circles around me and if the lead rope can touch hos bum hes not moving quick enough. Back up and then circle etc, mix it up so he isnt sure whats coming.

So id up my energy like its the most exciting game in the world, back up, circle left, walk on, halt, back up, circle right, circle left, trot on. Once hes awake and waiting for his next instruction, the energy is there for a nice forward trot.

just something that works for us
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Thank you. Do you use a whip doing this at all?

Ben does back up, but very slowly. Everything he does on the ground is slow. I don't know how I can create the energy to get him moving his feet without using a whip. But then I don't want to chase him around with a whip either. He doesn't really react to the leadrope. I could wave it around the top of my head and shout 'yahoo' and he wouldn't even flick an ear!
 
I had this problem with Solly back in the day when I used to show him. It took a lot of work but I did get him looking reasonably on his toes and forward going alongside me. But dragging along behind me was always his default setting!:biggrin:

I used to walk him out and about with a lunging caveson on and a roller of some sort. I would attach a lunge rein to his roller on the opposite side to the one I was walking on, take it right around the back of his lovely big apple bum and then grasp it in my right hand that was holding his lead rope, making sure he has a loose enough head and that I wasn't holding him up too tightly. In my other hand (left) I had a lunging whip (without the dangly bit, or at least have the loose bit tightly wound around the ship to stop it trailing and getting in the way. I also got it to a fine art, where I could keep both the lunge line and the whip in my left hand and operate the two guides to him at the same time.

Just the stick bit was long enough for me to simultaneously give him a tickle behind as far back as possible, whilst gently tugging the lunge line around his rump. The moment he went forward I would release the pull on the line around his rump and obviously stop tickling him with the whip.

It took quite sometime to achieve a presentable walk and trot for showing in hand, but he eventually got the message. I also used to do it on the otherside, but I have to confess we never did such a great job, but I just felt we should keep everything even on either side. Either way though, it all helped him get more forward and alongside me. I also used to reinforce it all with a very sharp 'walk on' or trot on' each time I asked for forward in either pace, so he would eventually respond in the ring, without either the long whip or lunge line. I did occasionally have to give him a crafty prod with my show cane to remind him - but only when the judge couldn't see of course!:redface:

I hope this helps, now I read it back it looks very muddled, let me know if I haven't explained clearly and I will have another go!:biggrin:
 
My lass is laid back and that's how she is. Leading to and from the field she is calm and we are not in any rush so thats not a problem. I do not let her stop and nose though, she all has day to do that, look and walk, not stopping.

To trot inhand is the same que as on the lunge or longreining, whatever you do now. I use my voice and body, the back it up is flicking the whip on the floor-I never touch her with it. I also have her awake first before I do anything. So I may have loose schooled first and got her thinking forwards, she is working on the canter to halt she loves the halt :giggle: But this wakes her up as its fun and adds variety.

I trot inhand every time I take her out, so its just part of what we do all the time. To add to it now we do trot to halt and back to trot, it makes it more interesting for her.
 
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No I dont use one, you know when you just walk around day to day ... thats like your energy at a 5.

When youve been up all night with a crying puppy and you have a 12 hour split bar shift thats like your energy at a 1

finding out youve won the lottery or a dressage test or whatever ... thats a 10.

If bens at a 2 then you should be at a 8! 5/5 is where your aiming for :)
 
Cortrasna said:
I had this problem with Solly back in the day when I used to show him. It took a lot of work but I did get him looking reasonably on his toes and forward going alongside me. But dragging along behind me was always his default setting!:biggrin:

I used to walk him out and about with a lunging caveson on and a roller of some sort. I would attach a lunge rein to his roller on the opposite side to the one I was walking on, take it right around the back of his lovely big apple bum and then grasp it in my right hand that was holding his lead rope, making sure he has a loose enough head and that I wasn't holding him up too tightly. In my other hand (left) I had a lunging whip (without the dangly bit, or at least have the loose bit tightly wound around the ship to stop it trailing and getting in the way. I also got it to a fine art, where I could keep both the lunge line and the whip in my left hand and operate the two guides to him at the same time.

Just the stick bit was long enough for me to simultaneously give him a tickle behind as far back as possible, whilst gently tugging the lunge line around his rump. The moment he went forward I would release the pull on the line around his rump and obviously stop tickling him with the whip.

It took quite sometime to achieve a presentable walk and trot for showing in hand, but he eventually got the message. I also used to do it on the otherside, but I have to confess we never did such a great job, but I just felt we should keep everything even on either side. Either way though, it all helped him get more forward and alongside me. I also used to reinforce it all with a very sharp 'walk on' or trot on' each time I asked for forward in either pace, so he would eventually respond in the ring, without either the long whip or lunge line. I did occasionally have to give him a crafty prod with my show cane to remind him - but only when the judge couldn't see of course!:redface:

I hope this helps, now I read it back it looks very muddled, let me know if I haven't explained clearly and I will have another go!:biggrin:
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Thanks for this. I think that I will take this idea to my RI and see what she thinks. My worry is that I won't be quick enough to release when he goes forward. It sounds like you need pretty good timing to get the desired effect?

I do like the idea of the lunge whip without the string. This makes it longer than a schooling whip and could be good to get forward momentum when I am just walking in hand with him.
 
Not sure if it's any help, but I find Poppy will take the p*ss if I look at her! If I just march firmly along with a relaxed lead rein, she'll walk nicely beside (well, just behind me) but if I glance back, or fuss about in any way, she takes this as her cue to graze or dawdle. I suppose she thinks I can't be that focused if I have time to look round!
 
I suppose, put baldly, that although he is a saint under saddle, on the ground Ben is disobedient. This is a problem with a big strong horse like him.

My RI has recently done a course with an Australian horseman - I think it is Ian Leighton but will check and confirm. She is of the view that the groundwork drives the respect a horse has for you when you ride it. I don't do half enough of this with Ziggy: he is markedly less respectful and obedient of me than of my groom Carol, who takes no nonsense!

Her approach is (this is obviously very truncated but I'll do my best):

  • work in a bridle.
  • hold a schooling whip.
  • Have your back to the direction of travel (ie you walk backwards) so you are free to watch the horse.
  • Cue the horse to walk with forward pressure on the rein.
  • If he doesn't walk, tap him on the cannon bone with your schooling whip until he moves forward.
  • Once he associates the cue with moving forward, you don't need to go on tapping. Instead, if when you cue him he doesn't move forward with the energy or obedience you require, make him back up. The more stubborn he has been, the more he has to back up.

Backing up is the "punishment" for not moving forward with the energy or obedience required. It works under saddle as well - so when Ziggy is strong, walks through my halt aids, ignores me or whizzes, he backs up.

You can see this working on him. When I am out with my RI and she makes me enforce this discipline, he thinks, "Oh God, here we go again." Then he tries a couple of times to be disobedient. Then he gives up!

One of the horse mags (sorry, I don't remember which) had an article/demonstration of this technique not so long ago. I'll have a look and see if I can find it.

As with all of these things, the secret is consistency and repetition. Which I am rubbish at :redface:
 
I agree with Jane and forgot to mention, if they flatly defy you, always without fail get them backing up PDQ.

I have to say I query turning to face them though? Or tapping their cannon bone when you are asking for forward movement? A horse's natural action is to move away from any sort of pressure...therefore tap his cannon bone and he will move it away from your whip, that is backwards surely?

To get a horse to follow you when he is loose in the field the very last thing you would do is face them directly? Or if you were loading them the last thing needed is to directly face the horse?

Perhaps it is some training methodology I am not familiar with, but does fly in the face of all I have ever learned. But I am happy to be persuaded that my ideas are outdated and unworkable and that your trainer (Jane) is onto some other more modern idea that is more useable and effective.:smile:
 
And if he doesn't obey the tap on the cannon bone, you then ask him to back up as punishment? How? Where do you tap him to ask him to go backwards. As I said, a horse will naturally move away from pressure, so how do you get him happily differentiating between a tap in front of him asking for forward and a tap somewhere else on the body asking for backward?:smile:

I wouldn't look on asking him to move up backwards as a punishment TBH. More as something that is harder for him to do and requires more effort on his part, and then makes going forward a preferable option in his mind? It can never be a punishment as it might quite often be something we need in a hurry to get the horse and ourselves out of danger. so we want them as happy to do that as they are to go forward, even if the physical effort is slightly more, we are not punishing them are we?:wink:
 
Cortrasna said:
I agree with Jane and forgot to mention, if they flatly defy you, always without fail get them backing up PDQ.

I have to say I query turning to face them though? Or tapping their cannon bone when you are asking for forward movement? A horse's natural action is to move away from any sort of pressure...therefore tap his cannon bone and he will move it away from your whip, that is backwards surely?

To get a horse to follow you when he is loose in the field the very last thing you would do is face them directly? Or if you were loading them the last thing needed is to directly face the horse?
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Ah, this is interesting. I would also think you wouldn't turn to face them if you want them to move forwards, as they'd generally associate that with stopping or even moving backwards. That is certainly what I'd do if I wanted to stop my horse or move her backwards.

My horse is so good on the ground, and the easiest horse in the world to load, which (sorry to hijack here) does make me think we can work through the riding issues. I took my horse and dog and 2-year old daughter on a walk the other day, all on leads (apart from my daughter) and my horse was the best behaved and most chilled of the three!
 
Have you asked your RI for some help with this MP?
I can't help thinking that we can all give you ideas to try but unless you are implementing them correctly they may not work?
I use my voice/energy with Belle who used to be like Ben, she will now follow me anywhere and at my pace be that slow walk, quick walk, trot, standstill or whatever, but I had some lessons from my RI initially to ensure my timing was correct as we used voice cues with pressure release, a bit like clicker training I guess but without the treats, just the release of pressure as the 'reward'.
The other thing as already mentioned is you have to keep it up and be totally consistent to a point where correcting if necessary is second nature to you.
I now have a horse as I said who will follow me anywhere even without a lead rope. Once you crack the leading you may well fine the loading thing will resolve too :)
 
I know what you mean about the facing them! The point is that they respond to the cue - you ask them to move forwards - rather than taking their cue from you, Because when you ride them, you won't be there, if you see what I mean.

The cannon bone tap is on the back of the cannon bone, but it is basically just an irritant. "Not moving forward when I ask? Move away from this irritant and you will do what I am asking".

I am going to look for the article because it's easier to understand when you see it.

My friend Suzi has used this method with her very bolshy 5 yo Warmblood filly to amazing effect.
 
You are very lucky that if he is taking the mick on the ground that he is very good under saddle.

Generally the issues on the ground progress to under saddle, but they haven't with you, and thats fab.

Basically, he needs to understand that if you say 'trot up beside me to catch up with me' thats what he needs to do. Generally being beside his shoulder and flicking him on the back end with a long whip - but not a flicky whip like a schooling whip which is quite personal and can cause resentment, but a long rigid whip, and when he responds rewarding him by doing nothing.

Under this training the very naughty and wilful Tobes will trot up, simply by me extending my arm and clicking and he trots up beside me.
 
Thanks everyone.

One of the big problems is that he is not light on his feet to back up either. He will do it, but it's very much one slow step at a time, and I don't think that he views this as a 'punishment', I think that he feel confused as to why I am asking him to go backwards. I want him to be much lighter on his feet and I want him to respond to me much quicker than he currently does.
 
sjp1 said:
You are very lucky that if he is taking the mick on the ground that he is very good under saddle.

Generally the issues on the ground progress to under saddle, but they haven't with you, and thats fab.
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My RI says the opposite. She thinks that when you get a horse who is as good and safe as Ben who always looks after his rider, that they often have inperfections in other areas. She thinks that Ben is choosing to display his stubborn part of his character on the ground because he is too well behaved to do it under saddle and he knows that he must look after me when I am sat on him.
 
Dannii5691 said:
No I dont use one, you know when you just walk around day to day ... thats like your energy at a 5.

When youve been up all night with a crying puppy and you have a 12 hour split bar shift thats like your energy at a 1

finding out youve won the lottery or a dressage test or whatever ... thats a 10.

If bens at a 2 then you should be at a 8! 5/5 is where your aiming for :)
Click to expand...

Ben is normally at a 0.5 on the ground. If I run around like a 9.5 I would just look like a demented chicken and he would just stand and laugh at me! I'm not sure that I agree that I need to up my energy levels to get him moving. I have tried that whilst lunging him. I end up knackard while he does a very slow trot.
 
Mary Poppins said:
Ben is normally at a 0.5 on the ground. If I run around like a 9.5 I would just look like a demented chicken and he would just stand and laugh at me! I'm not sure that I agree that I need to up my energy levels to get him moving. I have tried that whilst lunging him. I end up knackard while he does a very slow trot.
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Upping your energy isn't necessarily a physical thing, more a case of a state of mind for want of a better phrase, think assertive not aggressive but you have to mean it, if that makes sense.
 
Mary Poppins said:
Ben is normally at a 0.5 on the ground. If I run around like a 9.5 I would just look like a demented chicken and he would just stand and laugh at me! I'm not sure that I agree that I need to up my energy levels to get him moving. I have tried that whilst lunging him. I end up knackard while he does a very slow trot.
Click to expand...

I know the feeling - whenever I lunge Pops, I get the distinct impression that, from her point of view, it's actually her who's lungeing me! ;)
 
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