Hacking and schooling

[carthorse]

To avoid taking over @Doodle92 's lesson thread!

I'm currently reconsidering my plans with Luka. Originally I'd thought to get him out hacking and seeing the world until mid summer then start adding in some lessons. I'd love to go to the man I had a few lessons with when I got him, but with transport factored in it's going to end up at least £150 for a lesson and that's a lot particularly when it's for fun rather than aiming at competing. There's a good RI in easy hacking distance and I know she's good with super sensitive sharp types because she's who I used with Jim, but more and more I'm finding myself thinking about leaving the lessons and just keep hacking. My reasoning is alongside being very sensitive he's also proving to be a horse who badly wants to please and has strong views on right and wrong. I fear adding in school work is going to cause me the same problems it did with Jim and he'll start seeing any tiny shift in position as an aid and react accordingly, plus he'll be looking for aids and fretting when they don't come. Jim was a good hack until we started progressing his schooling, at which point he became worse and worse to ride out to the point of being unsafe, and I can think back to other sensitive but good hacking horses I've known over the years that seemed to lose the ability to hack when they were better schooled. I really don't want to lose what I have, and ultimately would rather have him as a fun hack than be stuck in a school with him. A few longer rides in the nice weather have made me appreciate what a lovely horse he is to hack - well as long as he doesn't do too much time doing his high stepping look at me movements which quite quickly make me realise why his type aren't seen on endurance circuits

I'll see how things keep going with the hacking, I don't need to make a set in stone decision. But I am edging towards leaving him alone and maybe going and having a flatwork lesson on a schoolmaster once a week or fortnight instead, that way getting my flatwork fix but not messing with Luka's head.

 

[Skib]

I am not totally clear about this and dont want to say the wrong thing. I am never quite sure what schooled is. Nor the division between hacking and schooling. Our old RI used to tell people I schooled as I hacked. I thought (as a historian) that dressage in a school was to prepare a horse to go to battle, i.e. to be a safe hack. To me, that,means to heed my aids.

Now about the strength of aids needed. I do not use bigger aids out hacking. This has to be taken in context. I was trained by Mark Rashid to get a horse to transition simply on a thought. But to do this on a RS horse, that horse has to understand that my tiny aid has meanng, and it can only have meaning in context. Our old RI's horse did it for me at once. We called them thought transitions.
I ride horses riden by other people. So the first trot out on an RS horse I need to give a clear leg aid to get the first trot. Then I return to walk and ask for trot again but with a reduced aid, and gradually reduce the ask until the horse recognises my riding style and responds to a thought transition. Mark Rashid suggests that a horse will respond to energy levels. Ella responds to my lifting the reins and breathing in. She now knows this means trot. If a horse has never done this before, I find it easier (on most RS horses) to introduce the idea heading home.
However, that is not true of Ella. She likes to be out and about and never hurries home.
The difference between different horses makes it hard to say what is right for anyone else with a horse. But the idea of having different cues for hacking makes me a bit uneasy. The smaller the cue, the nicer it is for the horse (R Davison) so a stronger more forceful cue is a sort of punishment.
I do think (rightly or wrongly) that a rider needs to be quite bossy when hacking. But I dont think this means intensifying the aids.

 

[carthorse]

I don't think we're on the same page here @Skib

To me schooling is teaching the horse to use himself more effectively, to strengthen him and make him more gymnastic and athletic. I want engagement, roundness, self carriage and a degree of collection so that he can move into any pace or in any direction with no need for further preparation. Responsive to subtle aids so that a nearly imperceptible change by the rider produces a different response. A horse very focused on the rider, and vice versa.

This doesn't always translate well to hacking. Riding out horse and rider need to have a greater awareness of their surroundings, it isn't safe not to, and I don't want a horse that can't think on it's feet if needed. If a horse trips or startles I don't want my movement in the saddle to be interpreted as a request for God knows what, particularly if we may be on a road! My aids can still be tiny out hacking - I don't like horses who make me work hard! - but they are the more basic leg on to move on, leg back to move over type rather than a shift of weight alone and wanting a spur to avoid hitting several buttons at once because a heel covers several "buttons". I feel no need whatsoever to be bossy but maybe that's because I lean to sensitive types who want to please, or maybe you'd see my expectation of compliance as bossiness.

A horse has to be trained to respond to basic aids to hack, but that's very different from more advanced flatwork where a tiny change is picked up on and there are so many different cues than the basic stop, go, back, left, right. Basic doesn't ever mean rough though, that's just bad riding and bad horsemanship.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I think that it would be unlikely that some lessons would produce such a drastic change. If Luka isn't tuned into the small shifts in weight at the moment, I don't think that the odd lesson or schooling session is going to make such a dramatic change. You say that he is sensitive and has strong views on 'right' or 'wrong', but surely that all comes down to how you work with him and how you reward him? Is this coming from him or you? What are your expectations from lessons? If you are expecting a huge change and want him to suddenly respond to much lighter aids from you, then yes this might change his reactions out hacking. But I struggle to see how this is a bad thing? Surely it is best for the horse to be looking for the rider for leadership, rather than feeling they have to take the leadership themselves? As my old riding instructor used to ask me 'Who is riding who?'. If you are worried about being caught off balance and inadvertently giving the wrong aid, then lessons will help you improve your position so this is less likely to happen.

 

[Doodle92]

I think due to being so terrified to hack him for so long now we are doing it happily j want to keep going. Also Robin gets bored and then silly in the school if in too much, he prefers hacking mostly too. Alot of "schooling " can be done hacking. And alot of schooling can be hacking to a field, doing 10mins of circles and hacking home. Of course there is not many flat fields around but working on less than level spaces is good. When he was eventing all his schooling was done in a field and he just went in the school to jump occasionally. I don't want to be having to kick or pull him about out hacking as quite simply that is tiring and I would rather being able to touch him with my leg and he moves round a car.

I feel much as carthorse and it is about teaching the horse (and rider) a better way of carrying himself. For me that is now mostly what I want a lesson for. I need him to be strong and holding himself correctly to allow his hocks to be better supported and so hopefully keep him sounder for longer. Also while I am hacking he needs to be balanced to be able to cover the ground more easily. He mostly holds himself in a outline and when he is focused on me then he spooks less as I am holding his hand and helping him.

The addition of competitions is because he enjoys a party. I am very lucky that he must have been backed correctly along with he naturally moves well. This means in order to do an acceptable prelim test he doesn't have to try terribly hard. If he stops enjoying going out or stops enjoying a little schooling then we will stop. My aim is not to start going out only to win and he will not be going in the school more than once in a fortnight.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

My RI knew that I wanted my horse(s) to hack, and for not much else. Her point to me was that helping the horse improve his way of going - his self carriage, balance, and engagement of the hind quarters - would make him a better hack and give him a longer working life, and that I needed lessons to achieve that because I am not a particularly good rider.

I have shelved lessons for the time being for financial reasons, but if ever I have an issue I'll be on the phone to my RI right away.

 

[carthorse]

He already responds to very light basic aids @Mary Poppins , for instance moving shoulders back will bring his pace slower. look in the direction you want to go and that's where he turns, very minimal leg is needed to move him on. He's certainly not a push me pull me cob! And once he's been taught something that is what he takes as right, and a variation from it is wrong and will confuse and upset him - for instance trimming off his feathers I have to handle his legs differently because he otherwise thinks I want a foot up then gets very agitated when doing so is clearly not what I want. What I would want from lessons would be the sort of things I did with Jim - though obviously not straight away - so leg yields, shoulder in, travers, half pass, collections, extensions. I don't compete at dressage because I'm not competitive, but that's the work I like. And done correctly, not with the rider holding the horse together and it all forced. But along with those movements and his mindset I worry I may end up with the old Jim problems of, for example, if the leg moves a fraction then you may be in canter halfpass in the village and saying "not now dear" was met with a very cross response because in his mind I'd asked for it then told him off for doing what I wanted.

I feel it's impossible for most riders to honestly say they are never caught off balance, and if he spooks in canter because a pheasant has shot out from under him I don't want him to add any more into it because maybe my leg has shifted or my contact has changed - and believe me this horse is one who probably would wonder how the heck he was meant to add in a flying change/canter pirouette/ half pass - no I want him to do what he does now and carry on with the canter. But maybe you are that rider who keeps perfect control over your body at all times? I'm afraid no amount of lessons will turn me into that person though, if my horse jumps 5ft to the side the chances are I'll stay on but I'll use my leg accidentally in doing so.

We work on a partnership not master and servant. He is more than welcome to tell me if he's unhappy about something and wants reassurance, and with that support he has never yet failed to do as asked even when worried. And in return I won't put him in a situation I feel he can't cope with physically or mentally at this point on time. When I got him he'd had some less than ideal riding that had produced an extremely tense horse and it's taken some calm and patience to unpick that and yet in less than a year I now have a horse that will do new rides on his own in a calm, if sometimes exuberant, fashion. And no I would not want to train the exuberance out of him, if anything the type of flatwork I love is more inclined to channel and use that joy in moving and showing off.

 

[carthorse]

My RI knew that I wanted my horse(s) to hack, and for not much else. Her point to me was that helping the horse improve his way of going - his self carriage, balance, and engagement of the hind quarters - would make him a better hack and give him a longer working life, and that I needed lessons to achieve that because I am not a particularly good rider.

I have shelved lessons for the time being for financial reasons, but if ever I have an issue I'll be on the phone to my RI right away.

This, now he's learned to relax, he already has. He naturally steps under and by keeping him calm and relaxed he lowers his very high natural carriage slightly and rounds over his back rather than being tense and hollow like he was before. What we have now is perfectly good for hacking, what I'm wondering is do I want the bells and whistles badly enough to risk losing what I have worked for, ie calm and relaxed. I'm not sure I do.

 

[Skib]

I want the bells and whistles badly enough to risk losing what I have worked for, ie calm and relaxed. I'm not sure I do.

But why should you lose it if it is developed in tiny steps? The school work I was taught was first me on the lunge for hours to get balanced in the saddle, and then for the horse's health, exercises to power from behind, using the hind legs and getting them under.
I agree that out hacking one canot ride these turns (though I have one place where I can). But trot, halt, back up four and trot on can be done out hacking. As can trot or walk to a straight square halt, count 4 seconds and move on. Both of these help to bring the hind end under. One can also leg yield out hacking. it is an important art for Police horses which have to pull out to the right round parked cars and then go back to the kerb and then out again round another parked vehicle. Typing this I realise how lazy I have become riding Ella.
Since my fall, I am banned from hacking alone so my current hacks are quick and vigourous. My escort wants to get back for her lunch. The only schooling I did this week was to walk , then trot, side by side keeping my horse's nose exactly alongside the nose of my escort's horse. I dont know why I do these things. I like to be occupied. And Ella is a pushy lead mare. She wants to lead.

 

[carthorse]

I risk losing it because of how his mind works @Skib. And power from behind is not something he lacks, far from it! He'll move sidewards from the leg - any hack should - but it isn't a correct leg yield and wouldn't get good marks in any test. I suspect you'd watch him and think he is a well schooled hack, but for me the emphasis is on schooled as a hack rather than working as a dressage horse.

I hope you're allowed to hack out on your own again soon Skib, though I can't help feeling that if you pay for your ride to be escorted and it is nly you and the yard rider then you should have more say in what you do on the ride.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I'm struggling to follow this thread. If you are happy with Luka's way of going, you only want to hack and don't want to change anything, then why do you want lessons? Or are you justifying why you don't want lessons? Who thinks that you should have them if you don't want them?

 

[carthorse]

I want lessons because I enjoy flatwork as well as hacking. Not going around the school flatwork, proper schooling and working a horse correctly flatwork, the sort that feels like a well choreographed and performed dance. And I'm just feeling it may be better to get that fix on a different horse and keep Luka as a fun and relatively uncomplicated hack which is something he's become good at in a relatively short space of time.

 

[Skib]

And I'm just feeling it may be better to get that fix on a different horse and keep Luka as a fun and relatively uncomplicated hack which is something he's become good at in a relatively short space of time.

This was my situation with Maisie. For health reasons she was only ever to hack, so I went to a specialist dressage centre for dressage lessons on a Dutch warm blood horse (didnt take to them) and later had excellent dressage lessons on a very nice RS pony nearer home, going up the levels and having an amazing time as we both learned together.
But like carthorse I have been looking at special lessons again. And no, I wouldnt pay £150 for a lesson. The place I would like to go to perhaps is £72 for 45 minutes on a weekday. They have on line registration and the birth date entry wont accept my year of birth. But if Covid rates fall, I had decided to talk to them.

I will be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I think that it is perfectly possible to have a horse who is a relaxed hack and one who can perform decent dressage moves. Looks at Charlotte Dujardin's horses. From what I have read, her horses all hack out nicely and are hacked much more often than they are schooled.

 

[Jessey]

I totally get what you mean @carthorse, when Jess was in her prime and competing (reining) a lot she hacked brilliantly (better than most on the yard), but I had to be very mindful of myself - I couldn't talk as she was very dialed in to stop hard, and if something happened and I inadvertently flexed a thigh muscle she'd spin, and a deep breath was a canter cue, something as simple as me trying to duck a branch gave her more cues than she knew what to do with and she would desperately try to give answers to all of them! I wanted her that dialed in for competing, but it wasn't as relaxing hacking as it could have been, so as we showed less I let her get duller which made her a better hack, but even in her less dialed in stage she was still too sensitive for a rider not used to it, a friend got on and was most upset that she immediately spun, but she'd only done as asked.

Equally, if you enjoy the schooling I don't think there is any harm in trying a lesson or two, see how he reacts to it, you might find doing a couple of schooling sessions a month doesn't blow his mind and would be enough to scratch your itch, and if it does start to make him stressed just stop and unwind him and rethink.

 

[Kite_Rider]

What @Jessey says above.

 

[carthorse]

That's it exactly @Jessey!

The problem with a lesson or two a month is that we wouldn't be able to do what I want on that basis, he'd lack the knowledge and strength. And I'd find even after the very basic lessons we had last year or the odd week schooling when I was away he'd be sharper to hack. And in that time he'd done nothing fancy or more demanding than trot a circle correctly, change rein or canter round the school.

 

[Jessey]

That's it exactly @Jessey!

The problem with a lesson or two a month is that we wouldn't be able to do what I want on that basis, he'd lack the knowledge and strength. And I'd find even after the very basic lessons we had last year or the odd week schooling when I was away he'd be sharper to hack. And in that time he'd done nothing fancy or more demanding than trot a circle correctly, change rein or canter round the school.

In which case I think your school master lessons idea sounds a sensible way to go, but he's a different horse to what he was last year so might surprise you, or might do in another year when you have him really settled into life with you not being about stress

 

[Kite_Rider]

In which case I think your school master lessons idea sounds a sensible way to go, but he's a different horse to what he was last year so might surprise you, or might do in another year when you have him really settled into life with you not being about stress

This ^^^ again.

 

[Skib]

I cant remember how old Luca is but generally speaking with young horses on our yard they have been hacked out and cantered on the straight for some time before starting work in the school. Our RI always compared the school work to humans going to the gymn.