Hello everyone! I have had my Red Bay gelding for a few months now, and am looking into training him to be ridden. I have had some questions coming up, and thought this to be the place to do it. Weirdly enough, my horse has been acting a bit boyish lately, by chasing me in the pasture until I could get me a stick to ward him off, and trying to rear up when being led. We scheduled an appointment for a castration for him, but the vet, after putting him under anesthesia, realized he.. well, was 1; either already cut or 2; has this medical predicament where his testicles grew inward, and the only way to fix that was to do a risky procedure ( that cost WAY more than we could afford ). So, here I am trying to train this guy, and get the "stud" out of him. I know a guy that can break him, but I am not partial to the way that is done. I have heard of gentling, and have been researching into that. The first place to start for me is I want to lunge him, maybe even trying join-up, where you gain the horses trust and respect. I will probably have to give way to the older man and his breaking procedure, but would like any tips or tricks on training him to accept a saddle, without breaking his spirit, per say. I will accept any answers or notices, either on this post or messages on my account. Glad to be here, have a great day!
Excited to be here!
- Thread starter Rosemary17
- Start date
If your horse is chasing you then there is something very odd. It sounds to me like you are a first time horse owner who has brought a young horse. I think this does not boed well.
Plus it sounds like you have a stallion who is stated dominance over you. In my book this will not end well.
You need to get an instructor in asap before you get hurt. Personally if you are a first time owner it would not be ideal for you to be keeping a stallion. They need good handling from someone that knows what they are doing
Plus it sounds like you have a stallion who is stated dominance over you. In my book this will not end well.
You need to get an instructor in asap before you get hurt. Personally if you are a first time owner it would not be ideal for you to be keeping a stallion. They need good handling from someone that knows what they are doing
I am sorry but I agree with @chunky monkey in that you sound like a new horse owner and this is NOT the horse for you.
possibly not the horse for anyone.
Based on what you say, that “medical problem” the vet is referring to is called cryptorchidism, when the testicals do not drop down. That means you are dealing with a very unpredictable stallion And it’s why he is behaving toward you in the manner you describe.
I dealt with one in my lifetime. In his case he was m y best friend’s colt, he was a rearing, striking mean young man. The best vet in the region confirmeded his testicle cords were shomehow wrapped around his backbone. Back in the 80’s that sort of cryptorchidism was not operable and had it been, it was risky & costly.
My friend heartbreakingly sent him to auction with full disclosure.
I don’t care if you’ve had 50 lessons on a school master, been riding ponies on your uncle’s farm for ten years, and have decided to buy your own horse —— THIS horse is NOT for anyone without a lot of muscle, knowledge and experience fairly handling stallions. Maybe he can be saved or maybe the most humane thing for his mental health is to have him euthanized. Since I don’t know the horse I can’t say, except to repeat myself that this is NOT the horse for you.
possibly not the horse for anyone.
Based on what you say, that “medical problem” the vet is referring to is called cryptorchidism, when the testicals do not drop down. That means you are dealing with a very unpredictable stallion And it’s why he is behaving toward you in the manner you describe.
I dealt with one in my lifetime. In his case he was m y best friend’s colt, he was a rearing, striking mean young man. The best vet in the region confirmeded his testicle cords were shomehow wrapped around his backbone. Back in the 80’s that sort of cryptorchidism was not operable and had it been, it was risky & costly.
My friend heartbreakingly sent him to auction with full disclosure.
I don’t care if you’ve had 50 lessons on a school master, been riding ponies on your uncle’s farm for ten years, and have decided to buy your own horse —— THIS horse is NOT for anyone without a lot of muscle, knowledge and experience fairly handling stallions. Maybe he can be saved or maybe the most humane thing for his mental health is to have him euthanized. Since I don’t know the horse I can’t say, except to repeat myself that this is NOT the horse for you.
If he's been gelded there will be a gelding scar, your vet would have seen either this or it's absence and so should know either way what he's dealing with. I cannot believe he can' tell, just as I cannot believe he put him under anaesthetic without checking first - if this is the case then you need a new vet!
If both testicles are undescended you need him operated on as there are all sorts of health implications as well as behavioural ones.
The behaviour you describe is dangerous and as @chunky monkey rightly says this will not end well and you need to get in help before you are badly hurt or killed. Stallions are not mad, bad and dangerous to know BUT you do need to know what you're doing and his behaviour suggests that you don't. Please don't think a stick will protect you, and whatever you do don't try join up with him because he'll almost certainly view it as a show of dominance and challenge you in return and right now he'll succeed.
No-one is "going to get the stud out of him" if he needs gelding. Someone else will be able to handle him successfully, but that's no help unless they train you in how to, and as I said before for his health he needs to be properly examined by a competent vet and operated on if necessary.
If both testicles are undescended you need him operated on as there are all sorts of health implications as well as behavioural ones.
The behaviour you describe is dangerous and as @chunky monkey rightly says this will not end well and you need to get in help before you are badly hurt or killed. Stallions are not mad, bad and dangerous to know BUT you do need to know what you're doing and his behaviour suggests that you don't. Please don't think a stick will protect you, and whatever you do don't try join up with him because he'll almost certainly view it as a show of dominance and challenge you in return and right now he'll succeed.
No-one is "going to get the stud out of him" if he needs gelding. Someone else will be able to handle him successfully, but that's no help unless they train you in how to, and as I said before for his health he needs to be properly examined by a competent vet and operated on if necessary.
And ditto everything @carthorse said regarding the so-called vet (who needs a career out of medicine)that I didn’t address because I was too busy explaining how dangerous a cryptorchid can be in the wrong hands
Id be prepared to give the vet the benefit of sedating the horse. Billy will swish and lift a leg the minute i even attempt to stick my hand down in that region. 6 years and ive never been able to touch that part. But once under sedation i would have thought vet might find a scar or healed over incision lump.
I had a calf that the vet could castrate one dropped testicle one not. So he was left entire. Vet didnt remove the one thats down because technically if the other testicle is up inside hes still fully capable of being fertile. Sent him to the freezer at 8 months. He had to be kept separate from the rest of the herd.
One thought i dont know the answer too, can horses be gelded any other way.
With cattle they can do like gelding what we call open castration.
They can band the testicles at a young age. Not doable in a horse.
Third method they use a burdizzo and they clamp/pinch the tube testicles which i belief causes the testicles to shrivel inside the scrotum sack. Not 100% sucess rate on cows, but wondering if this is something that can be done on a horse, might explain why vet couldnt tell.
I'm sorry, but even if this is my first horse, that does not give you all the right to say I cannot fully train him. You all may have the privilege of spending thousands on a horse and throwing away the ones that don't work for you, but my horse is not to be said as an object that can just be put down because of a slight behavior issue that can be fixed with groundwork or lunging for respect. I cannot just put down a completely fine horse, and what, just get another one right? Nope, only one I will be buying until he drops down dead. I'm sorry, but I will not take your advice, but thank you anyway.
Also, please show some respect to my vet, Ya'll may think you know better than a person who has gone through several years of vet school, not to mention 4o+ yrs of experience, but she knows more than you'll ever know. So thank you and Have a nice day.
Edit: I have a few people who said they can break him very well and said that he is one of the calmest horses they have seen. So, even though i was not considering it, euthanasia is off the table.
No disrespect, but that is what i think.Don't think poorly of me.
Also, please show some respect to my vet, Ya'll may think you know better than a person who has gone through several years of vet school, not to mention 4o+ yrs of experience, but she knows more than you'll ever know. So thank you and Have a nice day.
Edit: I have a few people who said they can break him very well and said that he is one of the calmest horses they have seen. So, even though i was not considering it, euthanasia is off the table.
No disrespect, but that is what i think.Don't think poorly of me.
I love it when new members post with drama and then don't accept anyone's advice.
Then make assumptions about those who have offered advice.
Then make assumptions about those who have offered advice.
@Rosemary17 you're making some huge assumptions about members there, people who have given you good advice in the information you gave them. Now it could be what you said is a complete exaggeration and maybe all the horse has dine is put his ears back at a nervous handler who has then got scared and over reacted, it could be all the vet did was lightly sedate to have a look and then only managed a quick glance (though I'd still expect them to be able to tell whether or not he'd been gelded, though I'll agree it's harder on a quick look to tell if only one had descended and been removed), but in that case you've given us wrong information to work with.
The behaviour you describe is not a slight behaviour issue that can be fixed with groundwork and respect, particularly not if he's a rig. It's dangerous, he needs that operation and not providing it is a welfare issue. Or if he's properly gelded already and is truly "one of the calmest horses" these people have ever seen then what on earth are you going on about in your post? If that's the case then it's not the horse that needs training it's you.
Before you accuse people on here of having disposable horses you may want to look back at their posts which will show you that clearly isn't the case. Or maybe you'd like to move to a different forum where people are happy to have you post total fantasies that change as people reply with constructive advice, and will instead tell you how brave and wonderful you are - you aren't by the way, you're compromising your horse's welfare either by not getting him the medical treatment he needs or by not learning how to handle him and instead blaming it on him.
The behaviour you describe is not a slight behaviour issue that can be fixed with groundwork and respect, particularly not if he's a rig. It's dangerous, he needs that operation and not providing it is a welfare issue. Or if he's properly gelded already and is truly "one of the calmest horses" these people have ever seen then what on earth are you going on about in your post? If that's the case then it's not the horse that needs training it's you.
Before you accuse people on here of having disposable horses you may want to look back at their posts which will show you that clearly isn't the case. Or maybe you'd like to move to a different forum where people are happy to have you post total fantasies that change as people reply with constructive advice, and will instead tell you how brave and wonderful you are - you aren't by the way, you're compromising your horse's welfare either by not getting him the medical treatment he needs or by not learning how to handle him and instead blaming it on him.
When a new rider comes to a forum all we have to go on is the text of their post.
You posted asking about a gelding. Next you mention a vet coming to assess for castration. In the UK a gelding has already been castrated or a rig.
You report that the suggested gelding process will cost more than you can afford. Which is fair enough but indicates that this is a financial problem and you should perhaps sell the horse to someone who can afford the vet bill.
No one here can advise you to chase a stallion or any horse with a stick or to proceed without professional help. Most UK yards do not accept stallions. There are stallions on my present yard. But they lead and ride well. No one is saying that it is impossible to train a stallion. But as far as I know, no one on this forum rides a stallion and you were best to seek advice on another forum.
Stallions in the UK are kept entire either for competitive purposes (racing and dressage) or for breeding.
You posted asking about a gelding. Next you mention a vet coming to assess for castration. In the UK a gelding has already been castrated or a rig.
You report that the suggested gelding process will cost more than you can afford. Which is fair enough but indicates that this is a financial problem and you should perhaps sell the horse to someone who can afford the vet bill.
No one here can advise you to chase a stallion or any horse with a stick or to proceed without professional help. Most UK yards do not accept stallions. There are stallions on my present yard. But they lead and ride well. No one is saying that it is impossible to train a stallion. But as far as I know, no one on this forum rides a stallion and you were best to seek advice on another forum.
Stallions in the UK are kept entire either for competitive purposes (racing and dressage) or for breeding.
I did not say you could not train him. If you speak to most horse owners they will say that for a first time horse owner you do not go out and get a stallion. Knowingly or otherwise.
In my second post i also said based on someone elses comment that if the horse is that lively i would not expect a vet to fully examine without sedation. But a good examination should find scars or i as questioned maybe it was done some other way.
So dont tell us we no f all.
If this is the calmest horse people have seen then what the hell is this you have written. That in most horse owners book would not be described as a calm horse.
In your first post you asked for advise, then you tell us you wont accept it. Well you know where to go.
@Skib I totally agree but would like to add that a true rig, ie an adult with undescended testicles, is far more dangerous and unpredictable than a stallion. As the testicles are in a hotter part of the body the hormone production goes wrong and that has an impact on behaviour which is outside the control of the horse no matter how well he's trained. Many years ago I knew one, he was In very experienced hands but was still dangerous, the owner was eventually told to leave the yard and I don't know what happened to him in the end though I did hear he'd badly injured someone.
What the OP is asking about, and then back tracking on, isn't a proper stallion. He's either a true rig in need of medical treatment or a normal gelding that she's incapable of handling. I'm leaning towards the latter in light of her second post, in which case the problem is her and not the horse.
What the OP is asking about, and then back tracking on, isn't a proper stallion. He's either a true rig in need of medical treatment or a normal gelding that she's incapable of handling. I'm leaning towards the latter in light of her second post, in which case the problem is her and not the horse.
You are making false assumptions of the people offering advice because you aren’t getting your “ears tickled”. We are all experienced horse folks from different venues- that means we know from where we speak and try to offer advice.
I am a retired trail rider. I have paid for my own horses for 63 years. I have rescued more than my share of horses, retrained them, and found them good homes.
OP, The thousands of dollars you speak of is what I have IN my horses for medical care. One of my remaining horses is 28 and has been with me 26 years. When his time comes he will be buried on this farm, alongside four of his buds.
I am not the only person offering advice who has NOT spent “thousands of dollars” to buy a horse. Most of us are horse poor because we forget to take care of ourselves and our money goes for the best care we can provide to them.
There aren’t as many horse forums today, as there used to be but I’m pretty sure no matter which one you join, you will find the EXPERIENCED horse people will say the same things you’re hearing here. People want to help you improve your skills on a good horse, not get you killed on a horse who needs someone who is fair minded but strict and has the experience, smarts and instincts to handle a horse such as you describe.
We were in our thirties when my good friend had to give up her colt once she learned he was cryptorchid, not operable, and would rather rear & strike when asked to do something. I was the one doing the ground work with that colt. His dam was a grade Quarter Horse, the sire was registered but the stud fee to get that colt was far from the “thousands of dollars” you imagine we all have.
IF the horse is a cryptorchid and can’t be gentled, then I am sorry I stand behind my comment that for HIS OWN MENTAL PEACE, it would be more humane to send him on to his ancestors than to allow him to live his life full of angst, anger and unpredictability. This is when it’s about the horse and not about you.
I am a retired trail rider. I have paid for my own horses for 63 years. I have rescued more than my share of horses, retrained them, and found them good homes.
OP, The thousands of dollars you speak of is what I have IN my horses for medical care. One of my remaining horses is 28 and has been with me 26 years. When his time comes he will be buried on this farm, alongside four of his buds.
I am not the only person offering advice who has NOT spent “thousands of dollars” to buy a horse. Most of us are horse poor because we forget to take care of ourselves and our money goes for the best care we can provide to them.
There aren’t as many horse forums today, as there used to be but I’m pretty sure no matter which one you join, you will find the EXPERIENCED horse people will say the same things you’re hearing here. People want to help you improve your skills on a good horse, not get you killed on a horse who needs someone who is fair minded but strict and has the experience, smarts and instincts to handle a horse such as you describe.
We were in our thirties when my good friend had to give up her colt once she learned he was cryptorchid, not operable, and would rather rear & strike when asked to do something. I was the one doing the ground work with that colt. His dam was a grade Quarter Horse, the sire was registered but the stud fee to get that colt was far from the “thousands of dollars” you imagine we all have.
IF the horse is a cryptorchid and can’t be gentled, then I am sorry I stand behind my comment that for HIS OWN MENTAL PEACE, it would be more humane to send him on to his ancestors than to allow him to live his life full of angst, anger and unpredictability. This is when it’s about the horse and not about you.
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I used to work at a yard where we had two stallions, one at stud. One of them was a total gentleman to work with - a nightmare to ride as he was a sprinter and could really take off- he jumped the perimeter fence at Musselburgh Racecourse and had horrible scars, but he was a very sweet horse. The other was a total angel to ride and a nightmare to work with - he was banned from racing as he used to pull other jockeys off their horses....one way of winning. We used to muzzle him when grooming as he would take a finger off and he had managed to get someone on the ground and kneel on him at a previous home which was why my boss was given him. We used to ride the two stallions out hacking often wondered what would happen if I had fallen off Final Swing! He lived well into his 20s and never changed.
My own filly used to rear and paw when young, it's not just the boys, but i never felt frightened by her and just laughed at her and we trained it out of her. She was just a young thing and full of herself, but she was taught, kindly, to behave.
I feel very sorry for this horse, as being a rig or being a stallion kept in the wrong place is a miserable existence and it very much limits what you can do with them and the freedoms they can have. If you can't get him operated on, and can't get him behaving safely, it would be kinder to let him go. Would a horse rescue help you with him by gelding him and/or rehoming him if this is the only option.
My own filly used to rear and paw when young, it's not just the boys, but i never felt frightened by her and just laughed at her and we trained it out of her. She was just a young thing and full of herself, but she was taught, kindly, to behave.
I feel very sorry for this horse, as being a rig or being a stallion kept in the wrong place is a miserable existence and it very much limits what you can do with them and the freedoms they can have. If you can't get him operated on, and can't get him behaving safely, it would be kinder to let him go. Would a horse rescue help you with him by gelding him and/or rehoming him if this is the only option.
If you have researched gentling, why not research rig and the likely future this horse will have. Though I suspect you will ignore this advice since you've gone defensive about anything else.
Also, look at what turnout they have what you are feeding.
I have decided not to reply to anymore posts and feed you, since I cannot believe a first time horse owner goes and gets themselves something that isn't ridden and doesn't know how to go about starting it either.
Usually these threads have drama and your gelding/stallion/not really sure would be think it's pregnant if it was a mare. Trust me, we've had all sorts of fairytale over the years.
If in fact you've just realised, oh crap what have I bought, get professional help for advice, if nobody here is any good.
Also, look at what turnout they have what you are feeding.
I have decided not to reply to anymore posts and feed you, since I cannot believe a first time horse owner goes and gets themselves something that isn't ridden and doesn't know how to go about starting it either.
Usually these threads have drama and your gelding/stallion/not really sure would be think it's pregnant if it was a mare. Trust me, we've had all sorts of fairytale over the years.
If in fact you've just realised, oh crap what have I bought, get professional help for advice, if nobody here is any good.
Im sorry everyone, I just lost my temper ( and believe me, i'm stupid enough to do it on a forum ). I just can't get rid of him even if he acts like this. We got him for a good deal, and I can't afford to sell him and buy another. You all may have the resources for that, but some people may not. I am not going to get rid of him, so will try to train him. Sorry for any disrespect, Have a good one.
I don’t know why you think we are all rich. You are seriously misguided on that one. Your attitude sucks. Sorry but not sorry.
But I guess we’re just concerned for your safety. If your horse is a rig or a full stallion, you have much work ahead and you need help from a professional.
Owning a horse like that without full knowledge of what you are actually owning (biologically) is irresponsible at best and dangerous at worst. This is not some happily ever after tv scenario like Heartland, where girl conquers fears and becomes team with rebel stallion. This is real life.
Stallions or rigs are not for the feint-hearted or the unknowledgeable. They can be unpredictable with behaviour dominated by strong hormonesl Everything you teach your horse as a youngster has to be consistent and correct. If you have to come into a forum to ask what to do, go and get a professional trainer will be the safest and best response. You will never “get the stud out of him”. I would, however, get some blood tests done to find out his testosterone levels, which may indicate if he is either a rig or a stallion. I am surprised your vet didn’t offer this.
I speak from the heart. I have a stallion. He is quite something but I have had help from two professional trainers all his life. All the time I have to know where he is. We don’t have mares on the premises.
I have also owned a rig. He was horrible and mean and vicious and dangerous. We decided to get him castrated saying put him to sleep if it fails because we had no way of ”getting the stud out of him”. He wouldn’t or couldn't listen or learn. The vets were up for the challenge. It didn’t cost much more than a regular stable castration - two vets looking and a nurse on anaesthetics in his stable - and they found it! Errant testicle out (fully working btw) and that rig became a pony with a heart of gold over night. It was the best and kindest decision we made for him.
But I guess we’re just concerned for your safety. If your horse is a rig or a full stallion, you have much work ahead and you need help from a professional.
Owning a horse like that without full knowledge of what you are actually owning (biologically) is irresponsible at best and dangerous at worst. This is not some happily ever after tv scenario like Heartland, where girl conquers fears and becomes team with rebel stallion. This is real life.
Stallions or rigs are not for the feint-hearted or the unknowledgeable. They can be unpredictable with behaviour dominated by strong hormonesl Everything you teach your horse as a youngster has to be consistent and correct. If you have to come into a forum to ask what to do, go and get a professional trainer will be the safest and best response. You will never “get the stud out of him”. I would, however, get some blood tests done to find out his testosterone levels, which may indicate if he is either a rig or a stallion. I am surprised your vet didn’t offer this.
I speak from the heart. I have a stallion. He is quite something but I have had help from two professional trainers all his life. All the time I have to know where he is. We don’t have mares on the premises.
I have also owned a rig. He was horrible and mean and vicious and dangerous. We decided to get him castrated saying put him to sleep if it fails because we had no way of ”getting the stud out of him”. He wouldn’t or couldn't listen or learn. The vets were up for the challenge. It didn’t cost much more than a regular stable castration - two vets looking and a nurse on anaesthetics in his stable - and they found it! Errant testicle out (fully working btw) and that rig became a pony with a heart of gold over night. It was the best and kindest decision we made for him.
My Buddy cost me £700 and Suze cost me £1200 so both very cheap, But Buddy is on pain relief which costs £100 a month now and is out of insurance. Suze touch wood has been good to avoid the vet. I have invested hours and hours in training her as she was dangerous when i got her. I got my vet bill this month - £739....for 6 equine vaccinations and 1 Buddy danilon. Aimee donkey is on metacalm and just bought her a big bottle so on next month's bill....plus i had some cats who decided to splash my cash. It's not the purchase costs, it's the running costs and vets that are the thing. Many years ago i had a share horse who i adored who came up for sale, I could afford to buy him but couldn't justify £400 a month full livery to ride at weekends and then pay for everything else on top so i had to watch him being sold by his bitch of an owner who needed the money for her cocaine habit. She never bought him a rug, I did....A cheap horse or good deal is usually for a reason....and they end up not being cheap. Buddy i can say was a cheap horse who was an excellent deal and owes me zilch, Suze no but i have learnt an awful lot from her and we are best mates.
@Rosemary17 you didn't get a good deal, the seller saw you coming and took full advantage of your lack of experience. The chances are that by the time you've paid for vet treatment and professional help this horse will have cost you at least as much as a suitable one would have and with no guarantees that he will come right. In he meantime you have a horse that you aren't safe around and that worries those if us who have dealt with stallions, rigs and just general problem children. It worries me even more if you can't keep your temper just reading a few things you don't like - lose your temper with the horse you describe in your first post and you could get killed, and no that isn't an exaggeration.
PLEASE get blood work done immediately so you have an idea what you have. If he needs operating on then you have to find the money from somewhere for both your sakes. Then get professional help (very little point before the op if one is needed) which will also cost you. and make sure the help is good help - as a guide anyone who said they could train the stud out of him doesn't know what they are doing apart from taking advantage of you and should be avoided like the plague. Get training yourself too, you don't say how old he is but it isn't unusual for late cuts to keep some stallion traits and even when not backed by hormones I feel that currently you won't deal with that.
Stay safe. At the moment you should never be around this horse alone, instead always have an experienced person with you. Don't go in his field, get him to come to you and always keep yourself next to the gate or stable door, never let him between you and the way out. When you handle him always know exactly where he is, what he's doing and what his body language and focus suggests he's going to do next. Be very aware of your surroundings so you anticipate problems and head them off.
If any of this sounds to much then, despite what your heart says, sell with full disclosure and check any buyer out so he isn't passed onto another unsuitable home. Or pts, it's heartbreaking but sometimes it really is the best option, As for the financial side of it, well sometimes the first loss is the smallest - you can save more money but you don't get a second life if you lose this one or spend the rest of it badly hurt.
PLEASE get blood work done immediately so you have an idea what you have. If he needs operating on then you have to find the money from somewhere for both your sakes. Then get professional help (very little point before the op if one is needed) which will also cost you. and make sure the help is good help - as a guide anyone who said they could train the stud out of him doesn't know what they are doing apart from taking advantage of you and should be avoided like the plague. Get training yourself too, you don't say how old he is but it isn't unusual for late cuts to keep some stallion traits and even when not backed by hormones I feel that currently you won't deal with that.
Stay safe. At the moment you should never be around this horse alone, instead always have an experienced person with you. Don't go in his field, get him to come to you and always keep yourself next to the gate or stable door, never let him between you and the way out. When you handle him always know exactly where he is, what he's doing and what his body language and focus suggests he's going to do next. Be very aware of your surroundings so you anticipate problems and head them off.
If any of this sounds to much then, despite what your heart says, sell with full disclosure and check any buyer out so he isn't passed onto another unsuitable home. Or pts, it's heartbreaking but sometimes it really is the best option, As for the financial side of it, well sometimes the first loss is the smallest - you can save more money but you don't get a second life if you lose this one or spend the rest of it badly hurt.
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