I'm working with a 12 year old 16 hand thoroughbred who does not respond to any type of discipline on the groud or while riding him. In fact, he fights back. I'm an eventer, but it looks like it's out of the question until my horse will listen to me. Any thoughts???
Does not respond to discipline
- Thread starter kater
- Start date
Jack basically walks all over me on the ground, pulling me along side of him. He also pushes me with his head when I try to tack him up. His ground manners are terrible and I'm worried he may hurt someone. I attempt to be firm with him and stop him and make him back up when he tries to walk ahead of me. He tends to resist and pushes me with his head. He weighs 10 times my weight and knows it. We tried a chain over his nose (from the lead rope) and haven't had much success. He can even get mean and bite! I'm doing mostly flatwork with him (dressage) and he is getting much better and actually light in the front. However, he will not hault and stand, even for just a few moments. When I make him back up he throws his head up. He's not my horse. I have a retired horse I evented for years that cannot be ridden very often. I lease Jack and enjoy the project, but I'm not sure how to handle him.
Sounds Familiar
I shouldn't ask this, but is the horse male or female?
I have had similar problems with my mare and when ever I have met any one new and discussed this they think they know better, until they meet her!
The first signs that she was a fighter were early on when she was only two years old. She had her first experience with electric fencing and I have never seen a horse do anything more then shoot back when they touch it, but my mare proceeded to rear and strike at it instead!
When it came to breaking her in (I hate that term!)I took it very slowly and found that you could not tell her to do someting you had to ask her and persuade her gently and avoid confrontation at all costs (this is generally the idea with all training, but in her case it required a lot more patience then usual). She was turned away, still very green at 5 yrs old and due to personal problems the time for bringing her back into work never seemed to come. I decided after much deliberation to send her away to be restarted at a so called reputable yard and I have never regreted anything in my life so much as this decision. I was stupid and took their word for it that all was o.k instead of visiting and watching them working her. To cut a long story short I started to realise all was not well after a conversation with a groom and promptly removed her from the yard. I now had a real monster of a horse on my hands, just trying to mount was a nightmare, let alone ride her. It has taken over two years to get her truly back on track and even carrying a stick can cause an agressive out burst(from her, not me!), my advice would be to build a relationship with the horse and try to avoid situations that may cause confrontation (until you have a strong bond) and hopefully you will come to an understanding as I have done with my horse and she trusts me enough to know no harm will come to her, yet don't get me wrong she also respects me enough to know she has to work and can't take the mick!
Problems with her behaviour still rear their ugly head from time to time, especially when someone else rides her, but she is now a challenging and rewarding ride, as oppose to a raving lunatic!
I shouldn't ask this, but is the horse male or female?
I have had similar problems with my mare and when ever I have met any one new and discussed this they think they know better, until they meet her!
The first signs that she was a fighter were early on when she was only two years old. She had her first experience with electric fencing and I have never seen a horse do anything more then shoot back when they touch it, but my mare proceeded to rear and strike at it instead!
When it came to breaking her in (I hate that term!)I took it very slowly and found that you could not tell her to do someting you had to ask her and persuade her gently and avoid confrontation at all costs (this is generally the idea with all training, but in her case it required a lot more patience then usual). She was turned away, still very green at 5 yrs old and due to personal problems the time for bringing her back into work never seemed to come. I decided after much deliberation to send her away to be restarted at a so called reputable yard and I have never regreted anything in my life so much as this decision. I was stupid and took their word for it that all was o.k instead of visiting and watching them working her. To cut a long story short I started to realise all was not well after a conversation with a groom and promptly removed her from the yard. I now had a real monster of a horse on my hands, just trying to mount was a nightmare, let alone ride her. It has taken over two years to get her truly back on track and even carrying a stick can cause an agressive out burst(from her, not me!), my advice would be to build a relationship with the horse and try to avoid situations that may cause confrontation (until you have a strong bond) and hopefully you will come to an understanding as I have done with my horse and she trusts me enough to know no harm will come to her, yet don't get me wrong she also respects me enough to know she has to work and can't take the mick!
Problems with her behaviour still rear their ugly head from time to time, especially when someone else rides her, but she is now a challenging and rewarding ride, as oppose to a raving lunatic!
How long has the owner had him, has he always been like this? He does sound as if he has no proper education in the manners department or been treated unfairly, causing him to have no trust or respect for his handlers.
Before I would do anything else, I would have his teeth checked, he may have hooks on his teeth which can cause quite alot of pain, they often occur at his age. Also I would check his back.
I have always found using a chain very effective, but not to lead from the chain but the lead rope while supporting the weight of the chain, when he misbehaves a sharp tug and a loud NO then release the pressure, don't let it tighten as this will only cause discomfort and give him something to fight. If your interested read the post 'Pushy Horse'.
Also instead of backing him, which is a bit confrontational and he will almost certainly win, turn him on a tight circle and use a stick as a gate to halt him, then ask him to walk on, keep repeating this, be calm, and consistent. Also clip your lead rope to the nearside ring on your head collar, which will unbalance him if you give a good tug to bring him round.
But check him out first, there are very few nasty horses, usually they are trying to say 'I don't understand' or 'that hurts' etc. When they feel they are being ignored thats when they start shouting and stamping thier feet.
Work on building a trusting relationship, and becareful, bad manners and lack of respect are dangerous. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and treat him as you would a youngster, start at the beginning with ground work, in hand work, lunging and long lining him.
Good luck, let me know how you come on.
Lesley
Before I would do anything else, I would have his teeth checked, he may have hooks on his teeth which can cause quite alot of pain, they often occur at his age. Also I would check his back.
I have always found using a chain very effective, but not to lead from the chain but the lead rope while supporting the weight of the chain, when he misbehaves a sharp tug and a loud NO then release the pressure, don't let it tighten as this will only cause discomfort and give him something to fight. If your interested read the post 'Pushy Horse'.
Also instead of backing him, which is a bit confrontational and he will almost certainly win, turn him on a tight circle and use a stick as a gate to halt him, then ask him to walk on, keep repeating this, be calm, and consistent. Also clip your lead rope to the nearside ring on your head collar, which will unbalance him if you give a good tug to bring him round.
But check him out first, there are very few nasty horses, usually they are trying to say 'I don't understand' or 'that hurts' etc. When they feel they are being ignored thats when they start shouting and stamping thier feet.
Work on building a trusting relationship, and becareful, bad manners and lack of respect are dangerous. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and treat him as you would a youngster, start at the beginning with ground work, in hand work, lunging and long lining him.
Good luck, let me know how you come on.
Lesley
Thanks for the advice. We actually just had his teeth checked a month ago and they needed to be floated. His back is a bit sore from time to time. His owner does equine massage, which seems to help a bit. I will try turning him when he walks ahead of me (or sometimes over me) to see if that may help. How exactly should I use a stick in front of him? Thanks!
What exactly is wrong with his back, I would get that sorted out first, I suspect that is why he is throwing up his head when you back him. If he is in pain I doubt if he'll ever behave, his bad behaviour is his way of telling something is wrong.
I use a stick/wand as an extension of my hand. A dressage whip is ideal because their length is good and they are flexible. First introduce your horse to it by literally using it as an extension of your hand and stroke the horse with it, start at the kneck and slowly work back, if he's nervous reassure him use nice firm strokes, don't tickle him.
Then I fit a chain to the headcollar, through nearside ring, over the top of the noseband, then underneath and out through the offside ring, up to the next ring where the poll strap attaches, through that and back down on itself and clip it back onto the chain, you want enough chain on the nearside to hold but too much in case it would catch them in the face. You want your head collar fitted so that you have 2 fingers width between the protruding cheek bone and the noseband.
Stand at the side at head level, have the chain in your right hand, supporting its weight and have the stick in your left, hold it up in front of his nose so that it is quite visible, and when you are ready to walk on, ask with your voice and gently twist the hand supporting the chain in a forward and upward motion and sweep the stick out in front of the horse (opening the gate) and use it as a sort of guide, point it in the direction you want the horse to walk in. When you want to halt, once again use your voice with either 'whoa' or 'halt', whatever you are happy with and gently twist the chain in a backward and upward motion, at the same time make an exagerated movement with the whip, make a slow sweep towards the horse and 'close the gate' bringing it to rest in front of his chest. By the way the gentle twists of the chain should be very subtle, imagine your lower knuckle is at 6 on a clock the forward twist goes to 9 and the backward twist to 3, after both return to 6, use it as a suggestion, not a push or pull.
If he gets in front of you, or pushes/barges give a good tug on the chain and give a good stern 'NO', circle him and try again. Try and remain calm, always be consistent, always use the same commands. As soon as you see him do one tiny thing right praise him, not with titbits, use plenty of voice and stroke him. Always support the weight of the chain, if you do have to give a sharp tug, make it just that, don't hang onto the chain and always make sure it has released after it has been tight.
Its always best to start this work with a wall on the offside, so that when you 'close the gate' you have the wall to help you. One other thing is if he is walking too fast, try speeding up yourself, but take long exaggerated strides, pretend you are walking on the moon and he may slow down and imitate the stride you are setting, though this might not work at first if you work him regularly like this as he begins to listen and respond he will.
I'm sorry this is so long, but it is fiddly to explain, I hope this helps you, there are loads of different inhand lessons, I find working a horse from the ground like this before I ride them a big help, it gives you both a chance to get to know each other, builds up respect and trust and gets them to respond to you voice.
Good luck
Lesley
I use a stick/wand as an extension of my hand. A dressage whip is ideal because their length is good and they are flexible. First introduce your horse to it by literally using it as an extension of your hand and stroke the horse with it, start at the kneck and slowly work back, if he's nervous reassure him use nice firm strokes, don't tickle him.
Then I fit a chain to the headcollar, through nearside ring, over the top of the noseband, then underneath and out through the offside ring, up to the next ring where the poll strap attaches, through that and back down on itself and clip it back onto the chain, you want enough chain on the nearside to hold but too much in case it would catch them in the face. You want your head collar fitted so that you have 2 fingers width between the protruding cheek bone and the noseband.
Stand at the side at head level, have the chain in your right hand, supporting its weight and have the stick in your left, hold it up in front of his nose so that it is quite visible, and when you are ready to walk on, ask with your voice and gently twist the hand supporting the chain in a forward and upward motion and sweep the stick out in front of the horse (opening the gate) and use it as a sort of guide, point it in the direction you want the horse to walk in. When you want to halt, once again use your voice with either 'whoa' or 'halt', whatever you are happy with and gently twist the chain in a backward and upward motion, at the same time make an exagerated movement with the whip, make a slow sweep towards the horse and 'close the gate' bringing it to rest in front of his chest. By the way the gentle twists of the chain should be very subtle, imagine your lower knuckle is at 6 on a clock the forward twist goes to 9 and the backward twist to 3, after both return to 6, use it as a suggestion, not a push or pull.
If he gets in front of you, or pushes/barges give a good tug on the chain and give a good stern 'NO', circle him and try again. Try and remain calm, always be consistent, always use the same commands. As soon as you see him do one tiny thing right praise him, not with titbits, use plenty of voice and stroke him. Always support the weight of the chain, if you do have to give a sharp tug, make it just that, don't hang onto the chain and always make sure it has released after it has been tight.
Its always best to start this work with a wall on the offside, so that when you 'close the gate' you have the wall to help you. One other thing is if he is walking too fast, try speeding up yourself, but take long exaggerated strides, pretend you are walking on the moon and he may slow down and imitate the stride you are setting, though this might not work at first if you work him regularly like this as he begins to listen and respond he will.
I'm sorry this is so long, but it is fiddly to explain, I hope this helps you, there are loads of different inhand lessons, I find working a horse from the ground like this before I ride them a big help, it gives you both a chance to get to know each other, builds up respect and trust and gets them to respond to you voice.
Good luck
Lesley
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