Contact (or the lack of) and outline

[alwaysfallingof]

Max has been going really nicely the past few weeks - we can get an outline in about 10/15 minutes, he holds it if I ask him to, and every minute or so I let him have a stretch right down to the buckle for a long side or a diagonal, pick him up and he's there again.

However, I only have the lightest contact with him (all my cues to round are coming from my seat and legs, otherwise he just comes 'up and back' at me rather than stretching down - v. short neck) and according to my RI I occasionally have loops in my reins.

I thought that this wasn't so bad...surely the fact that he keeps the frame without a contact is a good thing (even if it is rider error)? However, she said that it shows that he's not really accepting my contact because he hollows when I make it a bit firmer.

Ideas/comments/suggestions?

 

[jenren!!]

I'd be interested to hear some suggestions about this.

The reins harness energy created by the back end, so if there is no contact any energy created is thrown out the front end. When you take up the reins, if he hollows, it means he finds it hard to contain the energy...yet self-carriage less contact is needed...so really you need a soft, elastic contact.

Anyone to add? I dont want to write more and end up confusing myself .

 

[Yann]

I wouldn't think it's bad either, if he's genuinely in self carriage rather than dropping behind the contact then you shouldn't need to hold him anywhere. Seems to be something that has passed a lot of instructors and dressage riders by.

 

[coss]

this is the problem i have been working on with my mare. she has an endurance background so was used to baggy reins, any contact resulted in me being able to see her muzzle whilst on board. its a tricky problem but with time and patience i'm sure you'll get there.
It is brilliant you have already got a horse in self carriage (further than i started with) but to progress you do need contact, there are movements that just need rein contact to confirm what you are asking and if you go from no rein contact to asking something it will be a shock to the horse and the result will be a hollow horse.

Here is an exercise that i did with my mare last year and it really helped...

try picking up a contact in walk and just make sure that although it is there, there aren't any restrictions. make sure your shoulders move with the horses shoulders so that it is very rhythmic. i would also do a lot of circle work including spirals as this will encourage the horse to come up through the back and lower the head to be able to spiral but you will have a rein contact.
Go on a circle (20m ish) and ask for slight flexion to the inside, you only want submission of the head at this point and wait for your horse to just lower the head slightly, hold for a couple of steps then ask for straightness. then flex to the outside, wait until the horse accepts that the rein contact isn't harmful and relaxes into the contact, couple of steps and straighten. do this a few times. once you have established flexion of the head you can ask for a little shoulder in (remember this is all in walk to begin with) always trying to maintain softness but without losing the contact. you only need a few strides and then continue on the shoulder in curve to straighten as that is easier for the horse. do about a quarter of the circle straight (well with bend but you are almost straight on a 20m circle ). then do a few strides of shoulder out, then straighten (this way is always harder). at this point you have a choice, you can either try some hauches in and haunches out using the same method as shoulder in/out or you can change the rein and start with the head flexion and then move on to the shoulder in/out.
All of this will help maintain suppleness, it will help the horse understand contact of the reins and it is a good warm up exercise.
the haunches in/out is hard work for both horse and rider and trying to keep it on the circle makes it hard mentally but it will engage the back end more and helps both horse and rider concentrate on things other than the rein contact (although you need to keep thinking about keeping it )
you can then do spirals with a bit of leg yield. if you did the hauches in you will find it is very useful for spiralling.

I would then progress to trot and would again just start with flexion of the head. make sure you have a very slow rhythmic trot and when you move onto the shoulder in/out (and haunches in/out) you will find it is much easier in sitting trot and the horse will need to collect and your seat helps ask for the movement.
If at any point your horse becomes stressed and hollows just calmly ask for straightness and then flexion and then shoulder/haunches in/out as it just make it easier. hope that helps

 

[Rips]

This is a problem I've had when schooling, to start off with my horse working properly - you have to have very little or no contact. We spend a lot of the lesson working up to having a reasonable (no loops in reins) contact - still very very light. We have not got to the stage where she will work consistantly into a proper contact, but we will get there.

I wouldn't call it exactly an outline either, its a bit too 'long', but she is using herself alot better. The only thing I found is that they tend to be a little downhill because of this... I wonder is that because of what jenren said and all the energy going out the front door?

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks for the replies

I have tried to be really careful that I'm not holding him in - he's 13 this year, and has only started working round in the past 6 months after years of not having to.
He's a monkey in that he's an expert at just tucking his chin in and then leaving his back legs in the next county if you don't catch him at it...which is why I've erred on the side of less contact rather than more. If you do take up more contact once he's round then he'll drop behind it, but if you take it up before he's flexed at the poll then he hollows. Does that make sense?

His other favourite trick is to really soften into my left rein, but not my right so if I push my right hand forwards he stays round, but if I push my left hand forwards I lose it...showing that I was holding him there.
However, recently I've been able to work on either rein, in either bend only ever holding one of my reins...and it can be either one.

Does this seem consistent with what I described earlier?

 

[coss]

This is a problem I've had when schooling, to start off with my horse working properly - you have to have very little or no contact. We spend a lot of the lesson working up to having a reasonable (no loops in reins) contact - still very very light. We have not got to the stage where she will work consistantly into a proper contact, but we will get there.

I wouldn't call it exactly an outline either, its a bit too 'long', but she is using herself alot better. The only thing I found is that they tend to be a little downhill because of this... I wonder is that because of what jenren said and all the energy going out the front door?

sounds like my mare and your horse are working about the same level just remember the stages you have to go through, if your horse is rhythmic and relaxed you're getting there. ok, the contact isn't great yet (neither's mine) but you're working on it, your horse is getting more energy coming from behind but won't allow you to contain it at the front end so you will be a bit down hill. Think about sitting back and lift your hands slightly, more use of the inside leg and it should lift the front end slightly, it is possible for the poll to NOT be the highest point but the horse to work correctly (ie long and low) and it is a good idea to do some of this as it stretches the horse over the topline. you do however have to be careful not to put them on the forehand. i'm afraid that means you need even more impulsion so that you can pick up a stronger contact and be able to lift your hands to get encourage the shoulders up.

Hill work is alway useful i find as the horse has to push from behind so strengthens the back end, with a stronger back end you can get more impulsion. they also can't hollow as much going up a hill or they'd be extremely unbalanced.

 

[coss]

Thanks for the replies

I have tried to be really careful that I'm not holding him in - he's 13 this year, and has only started working round in the past 6 months after years of not having to.
He's a monkey in that he's an expert at just tucking his chin in and then leaving his back legs in the next county if you don't catch him at it...which is why I've erred on the side of less contact rather than more. If you do take up more contact once he's round then he'll drop behind it, but if you take it up before he's flexed at the poll then he hollows. Does that make sense?

His other favourite trick is to really soften into my left rein, but not my right so if I push my right hand forwards he stays round, but if I push my left hand forwards I lose it...showing that I was holding him there.
However, recently I've been able to work on either rein, in either bend only ever holding one of my reins...and it can be either one.

Does this seem consistent with what I described earlier?

your horse is in his prime!!! my mare will be 30 in may! thats a lot of years working incorrectly
i ride another horse who was a great one for overbending (he didn't hollow though) and i had to lower my hands and ask for more impulsion to bring his head up (weird) and you need a light contact on him, no contact results in a hollow horse as he knows how to work (he taught me how to have a light but consistent contact). it is odd that you can choose whichever rein to hold onto for bend, you should always have a consistent outside rein and you can give the inside rein away.
It does sound like your horse is at a stage where he doesn't know what to do with a contact, i think you are right to err on the side of caution as it means you have a horse that is very sensitive to leg and seat aids but you will just have to gradually bring in a light rein contact and let him grumble about it.

It may be worth you concentrating on something else (keeping a constant rein contact) but work on schooling exercises that encourage more engagement and the head should fall into place. its maybe a matter of you giving your horse a rein contact and just waiting for a bit more acceptance. it will probably seem worse at first but may help in the long run.

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Yay more replies!

Thanks for the excercises coss. I will definitely try those. I tend to get to the stage where I go...ok - he's straight, we can do circles and every variation on circles I have thought of, he's round most of the time...now what? and you've given me lots of ideas.

I think maybe the last bit of what you said:

its maybe a matter of you giving your horse a rein contact and just waiting for a bit more acceptance. it will probably seem worse at first but may help in the long run.

is probably what my RI is getting at - but put slightly differently.
I just couldn't help feeling that I'd rather get a truer outline than take up a contact, and then battle with him to keep him round and tracking up (which he finds v.v. hard, and in fact although I have got him to flex vertically into that contact, it is then really hard to bring his back end up...and that's the wrong way around - because you really do feel like your holding him...and he will quite happily lean on you.)

I think you're right that he's slightly confused about what I'm asking him to do though - when I'm warming up I'll be circling and bending on a very, very long rein so I can just feel his mouth, and he stretches down, flexes, then comes up, overbends and just keeps on testing things that he can do with his head. Funny boy.

 

[coss]

I think you're right that he's slightly confused about what I'm asking him to do though - when I'm warming up I'll be circling and bending on a very, very long rein so I can just feel his mouth, and he stretches down, flexes, then comes up, overbends and just keeps on testing things that he can do with his head. Funny boy.

i ride a horse who is like that - warm up in a long and low outline to get the bakc stretching and the hindquarters working, pick up a rein contact and he goes overbent and does variations but he soon settled, he's a well educated horse who tests the waters
if you need more schooling exercises give me a shout, i love schooling. its actually quite a problem as out hacking i school and any horse i get on i try and school (i do take age and ability into account of course!) but i like to just get a bit more out of them than i normally see them doing or get the best i can out of them if they are used to a better rider etc. i just love it

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks coss

I was right though :-

Another member of staff was hanging around after work, and so was watching me ride. After he was warmed up I asked her to shout things at me if she had any ideas, so she spent a while pointing out that I was giving away my outside rein, and frequently my inside, and that I should be thinking more inside leg to outside rein, and just have a 'feel' down the inside, and INSIST that he works into the contact, and eventually he will come down. I explained what had been happening, and then she hopped on for a feel.

She is a very, very good rider but has never been on him before...but can usually get any horse working nicely. She tried with a soft contact for a while with no luck, and it was only when she really really loosened off her contact that he stretched down, and his whole trot changed (I know that it feels nice, but didn't know how nice it looked, and even she said that it is completely different, and you can *really* feel his back lifting )

After a while she got some really, really nice work out of him.

We came to the conclusion that I do almost have a backwards horse rather than asking for an outline, then giving when he softens, you have to work your bum and legs off until he softens on a loose rein, and that's when you can start to take up a contact, and be really careful about it otherwise he comes straight back up at you.

He was such a good boy though, and I've never seen him working properly with anyone else on him - was lovely

 

[coss]

pleased you've found a way with your horse every horse is different and sometimes you do have to do things a bit backwards. i have to turn my gelding from the back end forwards. leg goes to hold the back end then i ask the front end to corner, if i don't do that he falls out or his bum swings. I'm almost certain that if you can get your horse round then you can probably get most horses round as you don't rely on the reins to do it

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks, but I think that's unlikely, because my contact is now completely messed up...I seem to have lost my sense of proportion, so even if I'm riding another horse into what I consider to be a strong contact, I'm still being told to shorten my reins up and make it stronger.

I know what you mean about having to make sure their back end's there before initiating a turn, although I can't quite imagine how he manages to fall out - do you just lose the outside shoulder?

 

[coss]

i have to get his bum working on the bend or he squirms i yes i lose the shoulder. No amount of rein contact will stop you losing the shoulder though , you just have to get the bum to bring the front end round. i do a lot of work with cirlces and figures of eight where the bend is changed by my leg and seat (probably the same or similar to you) as the reins only help control the neck (side movement), the legs control the back end and my seat controls the middle and you just have to hope the shoulders follow (obviously i realise its not quite that clear cut about which sections are controlled )
I ride a couple of horses who really need a light contact, i always ride as light as i can, you can take up a stronger contact but it can be very hard to lighten (when a strong contact makes the horse tense most people take up a stronger contact ).

I'm sure if you rode lots of horses it would just be second nature

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Yep, that makes sense, I can imagine that now, know what you mean (although I usually go too far the other way - use my outside leg too strongly so that he falls round the corner with his inside shoulder.)

I've decided that for the moment I'm going to spend a few weeks just getting him nicely long and low - so that he's carrying himself and round, but really stretching down into practically no contact. I'm not going to try and have my reins any shorter by the end than I am at the beginning, and will see if I can get an even more consistent outline like that.

I've also decided that I need to be stricter with him, and expect more of him. He knows damn well now what I want him to do, and yet we still get times when he decides he's had enough, and will hollow and resist through his neck. I tend to assume that it's something that I've done wrong (which it probably is) but then not get after him at all. This is going to change

 

[coss]

Yep, that makes sense, I can imagine that now, know what you mean (although I usually go too far the other way - use my outside leg too strongly so that he falls round the corner with his inside shoulder.)

I've decided that for the moment I'm going to spend a few weeks just getting him nicely long and low - so that he's carrying himself and round, but really stretching down into practically no contact. I'm not going to try and have my reins any shorter by the end than I am at the beginning, and will see if I can get an even more consistent outline like that.

I've also decided that I need to be stricter with him, and expect more of him. He knows damn well now what I want him to do, and yet we still get times when he decides he's had enough, and will hollow and resist through his neck. I tend to assume that it's something that I've done wrong (which it probably is) but then not get after him at all. This is going to change

it might not be anything that you've done. he may be tired or it may just be a test. my gelding learnt how i wanted him to go and now even when he's unfit (ok i can't talk exactly at this moment as he hasn't been ridden since novemeber but when he wasn't fit last year ) as long as i've given him 5-10 mins walking inhand he will go straight into an outline when i pick up the contact. i do have to be careful not to overwork him when he's unfit because of this and also have to be careful he's using his backend and he's not just putting his head in place
When i've ridden my RI's horse he sometimes sticks his nose in the air and it took a long time for my RI to persuade me it wasn't my fault, he was just being naughty. with him, you pick up the contact a bit more and just say "oi, come here and just concentrate" with your body. he will then just work or will play up more and you have to work much harder.
don't concentrate too much on long and low, it is very useful but it can make them go on the forehand if you do it too much. it is important you can achieve long and low but you also need to be able to pick them up without a fuss.
do you do much lateral work? turn on the hauches is really good for getting the back end engaged.

 

[alwaysfallingof]

Yep, that's exactly what he's like. My RI's always tellling me to "get after him", but I have trouble actually having the positive mindset to do that. But from now on...
It did help to see my friend on him yesterday - although her position wasn't great a lot of the time, when he came up she got straight after him until he stretched down again.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment re long and low tonight - there's a very fine balance with him between stretching down and being on the forehand, and I think I discovered exactly the long and low "feel" I wanted tonight - really stepping through, forwards, back lifted and soft, but neck horizontal, slightly arched and head vertical. Did like it lots

It's the picking up that I have trouble with, although I can get him to shorten his frame slightly he does tend to drop off behind. (Comes back to the contact thing!)
I'm just thinking that if I can get him working consistently in an "outline" but stretching down (long and low) for a good 20 minutes or so without him coming up, he'll build up muscles and learn to carry himself better than if I do what I currently do (which is get him low and round, then pick him up, do a few strides and then let him walk and stretch down to the buckle because he finds it *really* hard.)

Ponies

 

[coss]

Yep, that's exactly what he's like. My RI's always tellling me to "get after him", but I have trouble actually having the positive mindset to do that. But from now on...
It did help to see my friend on him yesterday - although her position wasn't great a lot of the time, when he came up she got straight after him until he stretched down again.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment re long and low tonight - there's a very fine balance with him between stretching down and being on the forehand, and I think I discovered exactly the long and low "feel" I wanted tonight - really stepping through, forwards, back lifted and soft, but neck horizontal, slightly arched and head vertical. Did like it lots

It's the picking up that I have trouble with, although I can get him to shorten his frame slightly he does tend to drop off behind. (Comes back to the contact thing!)
I'm just thinking that if I can get him working consistently in an "outline" but stretching down (long and low) for a good 20 minutes or so without him coming up, he'll build up muscles and learn to carry himself better than if I do what I currently do (which is get him low and round, then pick him up, do a few strides and then let him walk and stretch down to the buckle because he finds it *really* hard.)

Ponies

thats a good plan and its nice to hear you recognise when things are good and bad i would probably start with a good 10 mins, stretch for a couple then do another 10. you want the stretching to benefit the horse, give him a rest etc. if you do 20mins and your horse is really tired and finding it hard then they may find they stiffen or ache a bit and be more reluctant to go long and low the next time. with the long and low the horse should seek the contact down. This is where free walk on a long rein comes from. in warm ups and cool down i would do spirals, turn ABOUT the forehand and turn ABOUT the hauches and it will get the hindlegs under more which will make it easier for you to pick up as the muscles will be worked in more than just long and low. Does sound like you know what you're doing though