Behavioural Issues! Desperately need help!

kingsofscotland

kingsofscotland

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Jan 14, 2015
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I'd love too keep this brief but I think you need the full facts before you can help so please bear with me.
Over the last year I have got back into horses after many years away having family etc. 3 months ago I bought a rising 3 Welsh Section D gelding. He has a VERY strong personality and can be quite bargy. I have plans to do some natural horsemanship techniques to establish myself as herd leader when the ground conditions improve as I have no access to a school. He was being kept on his own when I bought him but I don't like horses living alone so borrowed a 10 yo pony from my sister to keep him company. He was quite aggressive towards this pony so while I looked for a permanent companion he was integrated into my sister's herd of 6. Here he was second bottom ranked horse but lived fairly companionably for 6 weeks except when separated from his first friend (who he had been so aggressive towards!) at which point he'd get so distressed he'd go through electric fences if necessary to get to him.
I found a perfect companion, a sensible,gentle but firm mare, the same size as him and took her on 6 months loan. They were put together last Sunday and it went really well all week. She was boss, told him off when he misbehaved but not in a nasty way. Firm but fair. Overnight something has changed and he is chasing her very aggressively and relentlessly till they are both puffing and blowing. I have been forced to separate them tonight though they now hang over the fence to each other.
He's also been much more bargy and bolshy with me. I'm not scared of him and I'm being really firm. I've had a 3 year old which I trained myself before. This horse is so difficult at times though, I don't know what to do next. I am not wealthy and cannot afford expensive consultations so here are my options as I see them.
a) I send the loan pony back and keep my boy alone (which I hate the idea of. I think he'll be bored and not learn how to behave around other horses)
b) I keep the loan pony, who is an absolute dream to work with compared to my boy at the moment, and admit defeat and sell my horse.
c) I keep them separated for a few days then try them together again.
It's not an option to keep them over the fence from each other for long.
He is also very nappy around other horses and needs company to go everywhere. He's much easier to work with on his own. He so desperately loves company though, I feel it's cruel to keep him lonely. I'm so worried by all this I can't sleep. Please help. I'm usually very strong and confident around horses. Even in the years I didn't own my own, I still rode frequently but at the moment I'm feeling like I've bitten off more than I can chew and I'm panicking a bit.
 
Sounds to me he has put his big boy pants on and it really telling her he is the boss but when he's alone he feels unsafe and needs the other pony for security.
 
I think it would be worth getting someone out just so you get an outside opinion to help you make an informed decision about your next step.

Personally I wouldn't leave him completely alone, I think he'd become worse in the long run. I'd be inclined to try and keep the mare next door for as long as possible.

I got a clicker training instructor out for my horse (she didn't have any behavioural issues but had been injured so was a bit bored) and she was great. Where are you? I'm just assuming you're in Scotland? I have another friend who is really good at analysing horse behaviour. I don't know if she ever comes on here anymore but I could certainly point you in the direction of her blog which is really informative and you may be able to speak to her there?
 
He sounds very insecure - with all the moves and changes of company I suspect the behaviour is being driven by fear of being alone/moved etc.

I think short sessions as often as you can (at least once a day) or walking him out alone and walking her out alone so he learns he is going back to her, or that she is returning to him and that you will keep him safe.

Napping is the same - mostly it is driven by insecurity and lack of confidence. You don't need a "good surface" to do NH on, start with the fundamentals of yielding - moving his bum away from you, moving his shoulders away from you and backing up - you should be able to do these with only a gesture or verbal cue with enough repetition. Move his feet - firmly but fairly - the ability to move another's feet is what dictates who has the leadership as such.
 
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Was he vetted when you brought him? Just wondering if he might be a bit riggy? Might be worth checking, if he is still quite young and has spent a lot of time alone he has maybe just not learnt how to behave in a herd since he hit adulthood, could he not go back with your sisters herd if that was suiting him?
 
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I have considered lots of these options, thank you. I agree he is insecure and the changes aren't helpful. I don't want to make them but my sister removed her first pony after she became worried about his mental health with my boy constantly chasing him. He can't go back to her herd as she doesn't have enough grazing long term, it's not convenient for me to look after him there so she ended up having more work on days I couldn't manage and most importantly, he kept damaging (basically bulldozing!) her fences and letting her ponies out of their stables through the night. He's not an easy guest, he's a flipping genius and escape artist!
I have been moving him around as in backing him up, pushing his bum round etc. What I need to wait for firmer ground for is to do some bonder work. I can't round pen him where he is or my field would be ploughed which will drive my dad insane!- I live on my parents farm and he and my loan pony live here with me. My dad however, is not happy about me returning to horses and has grudgingly given me a small field for them. He wants his other field, which my loan pony is now in, back very soon for the start of the lambing! It's all very stressful and complicated and I feel like I'm drowning somewhat!
Yes he was vetted and my vet was very impressed with him. However I have also wondered if he might be a rigg. I think I might have to get that checked out. He does behave quite riggy.
Thanks for you help so far. Keep the suggestions coming please!
 
Sorry I wasn't criticising the moves - we have to do what we can at that time - not ideal timing just one of those things. Just meant it could explain his behaviour possibly :)
 
To be honest he sounds to me like a young welsh cob who's not settled down yet. Finding their place with another horse can look aggressive to us, but in reality it isn't & is usually a lot of posturing & warning shots. Constant changes are only going to make matters worse as he'll become even more unsettled & insecure. Hind shoes off & let them get on with it! Obviously it's different if he's tearing chunks out of the other horse or putting it on the floor, but I'd be very surprised if that's the case. Do you have any video of them? The fact he was near the bottom of your sister's herd makes me think that he's putting on a big show to try & make himself seem important, boss horses don't need to do that! My D will sometimes look like he's being aggressive towards my ID (usually food related) but the second the ID is fed up with it & single look sends him running for cover - the lashing out gadding around, charges with mouth open count for nothing next to one look with a slightly flicked ear!

I agree with everyone who says you don't need a proper area to do groundwork, though if his behaviour is really as bad towards other horses as you say then I'd be very wary of any join up type behaviour. If I'm honest I'm not a huge believer in formal ground work - we teach manners every time we handle them, form a relationship any time we're with them.
 
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He sounds just like your D Carthorse! I think protectiveness over food is an issue with him too and I also think he's a tad jealousy and wants me to himself as he puts himself between me and her and chases her away from me. He also does exactly what you say yours does, charges after her, mouth open though I haven't ever seen him take a chunk out of her. I know the changes aren't good for him but my hands have been tied till now. Don't worry Popularfurball, I don't feel criticised. I suppose I want reassurance that my horse isn't a monster cos I absolutely adore him. I'm thinking of running an electric fence down the middle of their field so they can be together without him tormenting her. What do you think? If the fence will contain him of course! He was a gentleman when I went to refill the hay nets this morning.
 
He sounds like a normal bolshy youngster to me! The filly who shares her field with my boys used to be an absolute nightmare, aggressive to other horses, other people & generally everyone except her owner and her mother. As she has got older she has settled down although she is still tricky to handle, but she demonstrated pretty much all of the behaviours you mention. What has made the difference to her is consistent handling (she now respects me as well as her owner), work, and time!
 
I would try the leccy fence and get him in a very strict routine of feed, hay and work/lesson times and try not to vary it by more than 5 mins 7 days a week and see if he settles into it.
 
Seriously, I'd leave them in together & let them get on with it. A mare isn't going to take much stick from him, once she's had enough she'll put a stop to it & he'll learn no means no. And he needs to learn that you aren't his to guard, if he tries that then chase him off big time. Even my ID knows that anything I'm with or leading is not to be touched or even threatened, and believe me he's a far tougher cookie than the D - as I said before a flicked back ear from him sends most things running.
 
Thank you all so much. I'm feeling much happier and more confident about a way forward now. Will try and keep you updated on our progress but I may be back here for more advice too! Please be patient with me! It's not as easy getting back into the swing of things after a few years out as I thought! X
 
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Well, they've had a week separated by a fence and have bearly strayed a few metres apart. A great deal of time is spent making eyes and mutual grooming. He has been an angel and piece of cake to handle, much to my relief. So tonight I pop them in together for a couple of hours and every time I checked they were grazing peacefully. When I went to take them back to their usual field (right next to the one I put them in to keep an eye on them) she ran off when he came to me and when I tried to lead them both he lunged at her in what I can only call an attack, she ran and I ended up on my arse in the mud with 8 large hooves dancing around my head. I shot back to my feet like lightening and them gave the neighbours a comprehensive guide to my range of profanities. (I don't usually swear!) I fuming with him and had to put them back apart. It's impossible for me to handle them together when he behaves this way. She isn't strong enough to stand up to him but I don't have facilities to keep them apart for much longer. Aaarrrgghh!
 
Sorry, but he needs to realise that you're in charge not him, it's not a case of the mare needing to be strong enough to stand up to him because that's your job. He has no business behaving like that when he's handled & I hope he got a rollocking for his actions! If you're handling him he does as he's told, & that doesn't include attacking other horses, & if you're handling another horse then that horse is out of bounds to him. Maybe trying to lead them together wasn't the best plan at this stage, but it's certainly highlighted an area you need to work on.
 
He got the bollocking of his life. I've lead them together several times before without incident so I was taken by surprise and couldn't do much to defend her from the floor! I was also unavoidably delayed on my way to them tonight (one of the family cats got run over) so the light was very poor by the time I got to them and I couldn't see well enough to anticipate. Yes, you're right though, it's certainly given me something to work on but how do I do that without them being together? He's come on leaps and bounds all week by himself - well, with a fence between them!
 
Or do I put them together but keep him on a rope or long rein so I can stop him and arm myself for conflict. I've been acting as herd leader ( as instructed by the book I've been reading on horse psychology) and he's certainly backed off this week with me. Not quite completely yet but a vast improvement. However, although he's being more respectful to me this won't stop him being mean to her will it?
 
I guess we learn from what goes wrong. Glad you didn't get hurt, but I agree with carthorse and wouldn't be leading them together while this is going on. It does sound like you're the trigger for this sort of behaviour. My friend's horse is the herd leader in the field and if I enter, he will make a beeline for me and warn my horse off. Its taken quite a lot of assertiveness training on my part to keep him at bay. If he even tries to come near me while I'm talking to my horse, I will back him up and I do my best to completely ignore him. He's eventually got the message but I'm always careful and never position myself on the wrong side of my horse as if he's warned off by the herd leader, chances are he'd panic and knock me over in the process. Often if herd leader gets aggressive, I try and reciprocate - ears back, bit of noise, head down and I go after him to warn him off.
 
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That's what I've been doing Flipo's mum. I've also barged my shoulder into him if he's bumped me and chased him off, putting myself into his space to force him to back off and he's done that. I don't want my poor mare to be a punch ball for training him though. She's come to me in not the best of health. She's had laminitis in the last year, though she's sound now, and is quite underweight so I can't afford for him to chase her and her lose more condition.
 
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