Indeeeed. One of the saddles we were all admiring at the beginning of the course was someone's Steubben Imperator. Those really are gorgeous...from the outside.
Augh! (Saddle innards)
- Thread starter galadriel
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Indeeeed. One of the saddles we were all admiring at the beginning of the course was someone's Steubben Imperator. Those really are gorgeous...from the outside.
Unlike, presumably, the manufacturers in Asia who get paid naff all for their work.
Is this proof that you get what you pay for, or is a name no garantee of quality, craftmanship and so on? Just curious.
Is this proof that you get what you pay for, or is a name no garantee of quality, craftmanship and so on? Just curious.
If you get some saddles to take to bits from a well known Walsall England maker don't be surprised if you get naughty things written on the webbing! If the factory forman had been messing us about or it was 10 to 5 on a Friday things would get written on other folk's saddle webs just to drop each other in it!
Another very well known and MEGA expensive saddle shop I worked for used those awful wedges under the panel to "balance things up" Their saddles cost an arm and a leg and were dreadful. That saddle shop was the only one I ever worked in which made us put wedges in thank goodness.
I had 8 trees lines up on my bench one day, I was given a list of what I was to make, All 17 inch dressage saddles. Trouble was every tree was a different size. Nothing was consistent. I asked the boss what was going on in the tree workshop and was told to get on with it all the trees were the same size just different lengths! Pick the bones out of that one if you can.
No guarantee at all. Some of the really expensive saddles were...almost...as horrid as the low-cost brands or the no-names. But while an expensive name brand is no guarantee of quality, you definitely get NO quality if you buy a cheap saddle. Bleah.
No interesting or horrid discoveries today, was all practicing touching up flocking, stitching, etc. End of the course too
I was having so much fun.Galadriel--thanks for sharing your "saddle innard" experiences. Tell me more about the Courbette/spine problem--which saddle style? I'm a novice lesson-taker and just bought a used Courbette Classic all-purpose. Wouldn't use of a quality saddle pad solve the spine problem? Also doesn't the size of the horse play into this? By the way, thanks for your input about the chewed up bits--I'll get a nice new one for the bridle I was given, and use my old worn out full cheek snaffle for a wind chime or such!!
Khaki,
I second that. Also how wide is the spine? I can see the top part and my Courbette seems to be wide enough even in the back to clear that just fine. But if there is an even wider part beneath then I'd need to know just how wide the spine is?
I second that. Also how wide is the spine? I can see the top part and my Courbette seems to be wide enough even in the back to clear that just fine. But if there is an even wider part beneath then I'd need to know just how wide the spine is?
Without wishing to preempt Galadriel's reply, what I've been told about gullet width is this:
1. The gullet should be an even width all the way along the saddle. Not too narrow, but not too wide - about three fingers' width. (Some manufacturers nowadays have a tendency to flare the gullet at the front. My own experience of saddles like this is that they don't provide enough support at the front and are inclined to drop down on the withers, although some saddlers think they fit a wider variety of horses. I'm not convinced.)
2. The back muscles are at their strongest close to the spine; the further away from the spine, the weaker the muscle becomes. So if the gullet is TOO wide, the panels sit on the weaker area of muscle.
3. It doesn't matter too much if the panels sit close to (but obviously NOT right on top of) the spine PROVIDED the flocking is nice and deep and springy.
1. The gullet should be an even width all the way along the saddle. Not too narrow, but not too wide - about three fingers' width. (Some manufacturers nowadays have a tendency to flare the gullet at the front. My own experience of saddles like this is that they don't provide enough support at the front and are inclined to drop down on the withers, although some saddlers think they fit a wider variety of horses. I'm not convinced.)
2. The back muscles are at their strongest close to the spine; the further away from the spine, the weaker the muscle becomes. So if the gullet is TOO wide, the panels sit on the weaker area of muscle.
3. It doesn't matter too much if the panels sit close to (but obviously NOT right on top of) the spine PROVIDED the flocking is nice and deep and springy.
I'm going to widely disagree with you here, ros.
You do not want to ever put direct pressure right on top of, or close to, a bone. The spine of the horse is nearly pointed where it is close to the surface. The actual vertebra is quite deep; all that comes close to the surface is the spinous process:
Putting a saddle close to, or on top, of the spinous process puts quite a lot of pressure on something that is not equipped to carry weight. The skin is very thin and the spinous process is very narrow. Think about pushing the tip of a pencil against stretched out cellophane.
The horse's back, to the left and right of the spine, is a fair amount of "meat" padding that sits on top of the rib. The rib is more of a horizontal surface; setting weight on top of the muscle over the rib does not create that kind of pressure point at the top of the bone. Where the rib supports the saddle, it's more like pressing a pencil sideways against cellophane, not to mention that the thick mass of muscle blunts the edge even more.
The saddle should be set well off of the horse's spine, although, as ros says, not too far. You should be able to get 3 or even 4 fingers between the gullet at the back. The center of the panel should be 3-4" off of the spine.
The great majority of saddles that we saw narrowed at the back, such that they ended up sitting right at the spine. I really do feel mildly ill about the saddles like that, that I have used.
You do not want to ever put direct pressure right on top of, or close to, a bone. The spine of the horse is nearly pointed where it is close to the surface. The actual vertebra is quite deep; all that comes close to the surface is the spinous process:
Putting a saddle close to, or on top, of the spinous process puts quite a lot of pressure on something that is not equipped to carry weight. The skin is very thin and the spinous process is very narrow. Think about pushing the tip of a pencil against stretched out cellophane.
The horse's back, to the left and right of the spine, is a fair amount of "meat" padding that sits on top of the rib. The rib is more of a horizontal surface; setting weight on top of the muscle over the rib does not create that kind of pressure point at the top of the bone. Where the rib supports the saddle, it's more like pressing a pencil sideways against cellophane, not to mention that the thick mass of muscle blunts the edge even more.
The saddle should be set well off of the horse's spine, although, as ros says, not too far. You should be able to get 3 or even 4 fingers between the gullet at the back. The center of the panel should be 3-4" off of the spine.
The great majority of saddles that we saw narrowed at the back, such that they ended up sitting right at the spine. I really do feel mildly ill about the saddles like that, that I have used.
That's really interesting info, Galadriel! How should the saddle be fitting over the withers? I need to get the front block in Dolly's Fitform widened and I think I know by how much, but would really appreciate your input!
Narrow gullets and saddle pads
There isn't anything a saddle pad can do to make a narrow saddle fit further out from the horse's spine. If the saddle is sitting too close to the spine, there is nothing a saddle pad can do to change that. In fact, it makes it worse.
A saddle with no pad:
A saddle with a pad:
A saddle pad does nothing but make a narrow saddle *more* narrow. It's akin to "The shoe is too small, let me add another sock to make it more comfortable."
There isn't anything a saddle pad can do to make a narrow saddle fit further out from the horse's spine. If the saddle is sitting too close to the spine, there is nothing a saddle pad can do to change that. In fact, it makes it worse.
A saddle with no pad:
A saddle with a pad:
A saddle pad does nothing but make a narrow saddle *more* narrow. It's akin to "The shoe is too small, let me add another sock to make it more comfortable."
Obviously it needs to clear the withers
by 3 or 4 fingers. The points of the saddle tree almost must be at the right angle for the horse's back:
If it is too narrow, the points will dig into the horse's shoulder; if it is too wide, the saddle will sit too far down the shoulders and not clear the withers well. You have a treeless, though, and I don't know how the contruction of that block is going to relate to the points of a tree. If you can get me a picture of your saddle from the front and from above & below, I could probably make a guess about how it relates--but I still wouldn't be able to tell you what Dolly's wither angle is. I'd have to measure it to know, because it can be really deceptive.
It's been very surprising to measure a wide variety of horses, and discover that the great majority of them really should be in a "regular" tree, or a 90 degree angle. We measured some really flat-backed, heavily muscled Arabs, and their angle at the front was the same as my pointy-withered TB's. The part that will make the real difference isn't the actual angle, but where the panels sit with respect to the wither.
The panels should be well off the wither; on a narrow horse, they're closer to the center of the gullet than on a wider horse.
If I were to take photos of the block on Dolly, and then the curve of a flexi curve, as well as good photos of the saddle, would you be able to have a looksy and let me know what you think? I would REALLY appreciate it
...I can try, but I can't guarantee anything. You probably would be best off having someone local check it out for you.
Extremely interesting facts, Galadriel!
And those companies that claim to have been manufacturing saddles since 1840 or earlier...They were probably nice back then, but nowadays since other products are so much cheaper, they can just buy them and claim that their "Quality is the exact same since 1840". I'm sure it would be after using plastic trees and stuffing the panels with indian wool or fiber filled stuff...
Sometimes I just think "What a ripoff".
And those companies that claim to have been manufacturing saddles since 1840 or earlier...They were probably nice back then, but nowadays since other products are so much cheaper, they can just buy them and claim that their "Quality is the exact same since 1840". I'm sure it would be after using plastic trees and stuffing the panels with indian wool or fiber filled stuff...
Sometimes I just think "What a ripoff".
Showjumper, how are you planning on widening your front block? Are you going to get a wider block or are you thinking of widening the existing one? Only as they're made of wood (Beech I think) I don't think you could widen it. Some people do take the block out completely and others replace the block with foam or something similar to pad the pocket out.
The best thing for you to do would be to contact Goldfinch Endurance and see what they think. They have the most experience with this type of thing and they're very helpful. Tell them Amanda with Bebe told you to get in touch!
FWIW, my Fitform appears to have no wither clearance once it's on Bebe but I can put the flat of my hand under the front block and be 100% comfortable even when I'm mounted. It's never caused any problems at all for Bebe and I'm pretty neurotic so have her back checked twice a year by a McTimoney Chiropractor and in between her visits I have a Bowen Therapist work on Bebe. She probably gets her back checked every 2-3 months on average. She does have decent withers too, she's not a flat backed type.
The best thing for you to do would be to contact Goldfinch Endurance and see what they think. They have the most experience with this type of thing and they're very helpful. Tell them Amanda with Bebe told you to get in touch!
FWIW, my Fitform appears to have no wither clearance once it's on Bebe but I can put the flat of my hand under the front block and be 100% comfortable even when I'm mounted. It's never caused any problems at all for Bebe and I'm pretty neurotic so have her back checked twice a year by a McTimoney Chiropractor and in between her visits I have a Bowen Therapist work on Bebe. She probably gets her back checked every 2-3 months on average. She does have decent withers too, she's not a flat backed type.
Just to return to gullet width for a moment, can I make it clear that I wasn't suggesting that it's acceptable for the panels to sit on the spinal processes; what we're really talking about is the muscle over the top end of the ribs, close to where they join with the spinal processes. The point I was trying to make is that if the gullet is too wide (and I've seen some that really are) the panels are missing the strongest part of the muscle - the main area that works to support the spine.
I think you need to qualify the statement that you shouldn't put pressure on a bone - after all, the panels are always going to sit over the ribcage (mind you, a lot of horses have plenty of built-in flocking to protect their ribs ).
One or two other things I find interesting/confusing:
1. How do you get away with the kind of treeless saddle that doesn't have a gullet?
2. What happens when you ride with only a saddle pad or blanket?
3. How much damage can you actually do with a badly fitted numnah that presses on the spine?
I think you need to qualify the statement that you shouldn't put pressure on a bone - after all, the panels are always going to sit over the ribcage (mind you, a lot of horses have plenty of built-in flocking to protect their ribs
). One or two other things I find interesting/confusing:
1. How do you get away with the kind of treeless saddle that doesn't have a gullet?
2. What happens when you ride with only a saddle pad or blanket?
3. How much damage can you actually do with a badly fitted numnah that presses on the spine?
Whups, sorry, you're right--I missed a phrase.
You do not want to ever put direct pressure right on top of, or close to, a bone where it is near the surface. For example, at the point of the shoulder and the point of the hip, the bones come quite close to the surface of the skin. They're also rather narrow at these places, or even somewhat "pointy." Putting pressure on them is, again, like a pencil tip pushing at cellophane.
The same goes for the spinous processes. The horse's back looks rather a lot like ours as you go down the middle, but unlike ours, all that is close to the surface is the very tip of the bone. In our backs, the vertebrae are right there close to the surface, too. Where the saddle bears down on the horse's back must give it enough clearance that the saddle is resting over the surface of the ribs, rather than pulling at the spine.
So the prevalance of saddles that sit like this:
is very worrisome. This saddle sets down right next to the spinous processes of Kat's back, and Kat is one of the most narrow horses I've ever seen:
And that was a *wide* saddle--one marketed for use on wide backed horses.
Almost all the saddles we looked at come to an extremely narrow opening at the back. I've been going through eBay looking at pics of saddles, and the great majority of those that had an image of the saddle's gullet clearance at the back were just the same.
Happier with that, ros?
So what do the saddle fitters that you are taking the course with say?
Do they have an explanation why the majority of saddles are designed narrower in the back?
Do they have any preferences or suggestion?
Do they have an explanation why the majority of saddles are designed narrower in the back?
Do they have any preferences or suggestion?
I don't have a clue. Is it really possible? Or could it be that it's just less objectionable than any of the other saddles that the horses had worn?
Although up there Bebe says her Fitform doesn't *look* like it has clearance but in fact it does, so.
I can say that, of the saddles that we examined that did not have traditional trees, most of them were horrifying on the inside. He had a few Orthoflex trees--the way the "flex" panels were attached to the fixed part of the tree was very unpleasant (major pressure points under the bars), and the latest model was actually concave where it touched the horse's back. It would sit directly on the front and rear edge of the panel, and nowhere else, even after flexing.
We opened up an English saddle with a synthetic flexible tree, and it was cracked. I guess that particular tree wasn't flexible enough to handle the flexing that it was put through... (I really want to open up my Courbette and see what's in it, but I'm afraid of what I might find.)
Our instructor did have quite a lot of praise for the Passier bamboo tree, which also flexes. He was of the opinion that Passier had designed a tree which can change shape somewhat to match the horse, but without any major drawbacks.
Myself, I'm coping with having an entirely new attitude toward saddles. Everything looks different now. I'm planning to go visit a few major tack shops (being near Ocala, that's pretty easy) and take a look at things like treeless saddles and saddle designs by various prominent companies.
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