Why ride in an outline?

[Mary Poppins]

Who thinks it is important to ride your horse in an outline? What does an outline mean to you? Why is it important or not important to you?

I have completely changed my views on this, but will wait to see what others think before I give my views.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

It's not about the outline its about working from behind over their back. If you think about it when a horse rides with its head in the air the muscles under the neck over develop and the back dips. The back is a weaken condition than we add a saddle and a rider to a weak back resulting is horses hollowing, damaged spines due to pressure, muscle can't develop correctly, pressure on the neck and on the poll.

Asking for a horse to drop in to a contact bring the back 'up' you can see in the first picture the hollowing effect.

I work in to a contact from the moment I get on. Not in to a comp frame but I want him to take the bit and work in to it.

I have done this with all my horses and none have ever had 'back' issues that said they get physio every 6 weeks this stops any issues developing

 

[Trewsers]

Oooh working in an outline, well.......
It isn't something I have striven for. As a learner on a yard full of people insistent upon it - who thought they could saw on their horses mouth and make it tuck it's head in to look nice in dressage comps.......hmm yes well, pleased to say I did not follow suit on that one. There was an awful lot of people who didn't even have proper training giving advice on this - and I feel they did more harm than good sometimes.
I liked to think when Storm was in her peak condition years ago we did plenty of work / hacks and she softened and had a naturally relaxed good head carriage - probably not technically correct at all but she never had any back problems or stiff soreness through her numpty owner not knowing how to achieve an outline. I think if you have regular lessons and want your horse to be able to work "correctly" then that's fine. So long as you and your horse get the correct training from an instructor or knowledgeable horse person and not someone who really has no idea!! But I also don't think any harm is done by average riders like me who pootle.

 

[Mary Poppins]

It's not about the outline its about working from behind over their back. If you think about it when a horse rides with its head in the air the muscles under the neck over develop and the back dips. The back is a weaken condition than we add a saddle and a rider to a weak back resulting is horses hollowing, damaged spines due to pressure, muscle can't develop correctly, pressure on the neck and on the poll.

View attachment 93727

Asking for a horse to drop in to a contact bring the back 'up' you can see in the first picture the hollowing effect.

I work in to a contact from the moment I get on. Not in to a comp frame but I want him to take the bit and work in to it.

I have done this with all my horses and none have ever had 'back' issues that said they get physio every 6 weeks this stops any issues developing

I get what you are saying but in reality, how many horses actually go like in the first picture? Most do not hollow to that extreme or hold their heads so high. You don’t see horses in the field like that.

How many injuries do you see in hacking horses compared to dreasage horses? Do hacking horses who ride on the buckle have more back issues? I don’t think they do. Now hacking horses are generally not asked to repeatedly do small circles, leg yield etc. All this ‘working from behind’ dressage horses are asked to do surely puts stress and strain on the joints because it is not a natural way for a horse to go. Look at Western riding, the horses always look so free and happy and they are in no outline at all.

I don’t know why we do it? Is it because the dressage test sheets say we have to? It just seems so wrong to me right now.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Oooh working in an outline, well.......
It isn't something I have striven for. As a learner on a yard full of people insistent upon it - who thought they could saw on their horses mouth and make it tuck it's head in to look nice in dressage comps.......hmm yes well, pleased to say I did not follow suit on that one. There was an awful lot of people who didn't even have proper training giving advice on this - and I feel they did more harm than good sometimes.
I liked to think when Storm was in her peak condition years ago we did plenty of work / hacks and she softened and had a naturally relaxed good head carriage - probably not technically correct at all but she never had any back problems or stiff soreness through her numpty owner not knowing how to achieve an outline. I think if you have regular lessons and want your horse to be able to work "correctly" then that's fine. So long as you and your horse get the correct training from an instructor or knowledgeable horse person and not someone who really has no idea!! But I also don't think any harm is done by average riders like me who pootle.

Exactly! Does the ‘pootler’ harm their horse by not riding in an outline, or does the dressage rider harm their horse by riding in an outline.

And by ‘outline’ I do mean working through their back, the horse using their hind legs and working into a connection. But surely by the horse using their back end, you are shifting the natural balance of weight distribution. And this is going to cause strain on their joints. How many horses on dressage yards have their hocks routinely medicated? How many hacking horses do?

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

you keep referring to in an outline. I didn’t mention it I said in to a contact which is not the same. A contact is the horse accepting the bit and working in to it.

When a horse accepts the contact his head will natural drop until they find that ‘place’ where they are comfortable and free over their back the spot when you find it is amazing.

yes I have seen horses ride like that not to the extreme but to a similar point and yes the horse had massive back issues. Sadly she died but owner got another horse and this is now riding the same way.

Riding to a contact May now not be your thing but having owned and ridden numerous horses over the years I believe that building strong back muscles is very important and working from behind not allowing your horse to pull himself along on his fore which puts more pressure on the front end is not in my opinion better for the horse.

As for hacking verses dressage both cause injuries to some extreme it’s like comparing one type of physical attractive in humans to another.

If you love weights you think that is best form of fitness if you love cardio to you that is the best from neither are right or wrong.

I would never judge anyone for not riding on the contact even though I have seen more back issues mainly blamed on the saddle than bad riding

 

[Mary Poppins]

you keep referring to in an outline. I didn’t mention it I said in to a contact which is not the same. A contact is the horse accepting the bit and working in to it.

When a horse accepts the contact his head will natural drop until they find that ‘place’ where they are comfortable and free over their back the spot when you find it is amazing.

yes I have seen horses ride like that not to the extreme but to a similar point and yes the horse had massive back issues. Sadly she died but owner got another horse and this is now riding the same way.

Riding to a contact May now not be your thing but having owned and ridden numerous horses over the years I believe that building strong back muscles is very important and working from behind not allowing your horse to pull himself along on his fore which puts more pressure on the front end is not in my opinion better for the horse.

As for hacking verses dressage both cause injuries to some extreme it’s like comparing one type of physical attractive in humans to another.

If you love weights you think that is best form of fitness if you love cardio to you that is the best from neither are right or wrong.

I would never judge anyone for not riding on the contact even though I have seen more back issues mainly blamed on the saddle than bad riding

By ‘outline’ I mean the horse going in the second picture you posted. So the outline is the whole shape of the horse, not just its head.

I think in terms of injuries, horses that do go on their forehand with their weight 65% in their front ends with no solid rein contact, probably do suffer less injuries than dressage horses who do ride into the contact. This could well be because they are not being asked to perform dressage movements as generally hacking is mainly straight lines.

I am not judging anyone. My main activity over the last 3 years has been dressage with a well respected dressage trainer. This is just a conversation topic I thought was interesting.

 

[Bodshi]

There was an interesting article on FB about this recently, the details of which I can't remember but the jist of which was that it isn't natural for horses to carry themselves on their hocks, nor are their joints designed for going round in circles.

I *think* it's only in relatively recent years that we have wanted our horses to work in schools and in a certain shape - probably since we have started using them for leisure rather than work. It does make you wonder how much is actual science and how much is fashion. (And if you look at the old paintings of the squires on their noble stallions the horses all look very dashing with their heads tucked in and a noble arch to their neck, but they're still hollow!)

ETA for a horse with back problems it must be good to do exercises to strengthen the back muscles though. I'd like to know the various pros and cons of riding in an outline vs pole work vs riding up hills etc

 

[KP nut]

Very interesting question!

I really like the scales of training: collection is the very last piece of the jigsaw and only for more advanced horses. That may be what people mean by being 'in an outline' or working from behind as it is collection that lightens the forehand.

Accodring too the scales of training a horse should be trained slowly enough to be able to develop the musculature that allow for collection.

In my view no horse ever needs to be 'collected'. But collection makes the horse more manoevrable and athletic for higher level performance. Is that good for horses? Probably not. Jumping probably isn't either. Or ballet for people! There is beauty, elegance and athleticism in it but it is hard on the body.

However earlier steps in the scales of training are rhythm and suppleness, straightness etc which benefits all horses and is very much part of Western riding. Also Western riders talk about 'soft feel' in which the horse has to flex at the poll and accept the bit to which is similar to 'contact' in the scales of training. So there are lots of parallels between dressage and Western riding I think.

Carrying a rider is going to be harder on horses than cantering loose in a field. So all we can do really is try to ride in ways that minimise the harm we cause. I think 'correct' riding is riding in which we are balanced ourselves (ie have an independent seat) and in which we train the horse to be balanced too despite our weight which the first few scales of training achieves imo.

Once we start getting into collection then I don't think that is any longer about what is best for the horse but what is necessary for the discipline of dressage. I don't criticise dressage riders for that though. I think dressage is beautiful. But I would never argue that piaffe is good for horses, any more than Puissance is.

 

[Skib]

As most people may know I learned to ride in old age and mostly from a classical teacher. Similar to eml, an RI regular on NR. Our teacher never used the word frame or outline. The contact we were taught involved shortening or lengthening the reins in response to the horse. We were taught how to collect and lengthen a stride by curling in our fingers and closing our shoulder blades.
But the imperative was to have the horses hind legs moving well under us - and this meant lots of work on turns and small circles in walk - bend being very important too. The turns and bend and halts bring the hind legs under. We spent hours threading our way through and round and across poles in walk.
When I went for proper dressage lessons, I hoped to be taught about outline etc and the things people do here to win local dressage competitions. For the sake of this thread I must report that it didnt happen even tho I asked one or two of the teachers - they just shook their heads and told me the horses were working nicely. You can see from the give and take of reins in some tests that the horses are carrying themselves.
Out hacking it is true that the horses do not bend a lot (unless one leg yields etc) and in some cases, like Maisie whom I rode for 8 years, they were being spared school work for which they were no longer fit. Moreover the young horses were worked on the straight out hacking for some years before they were asked to do much in a school. canter in the school was particularly postponed.
So to answer your question Mary P no - I was never taught to do that and would not do it if I had a horse of my own. But what was missing at that second RS I went to and many other UK schools was the emphasis on bend and suppleness in warm up. And much of that work encourages horses to step under which supports (raises) the back.
So it isnt that riders are not aware of the importance of not weighing down the back of the horse like a sagging bridge, it is that we are helping the horse to do it with other movements and another vocabulary.

Although I dont know, I suspect that the turns and spins in Western do the same. But I have heard that the life of a working quarter horse is shorter than the average non Western horse And they start work a couple of years younger, so I guess it is hard to generalise.

 

[PePo]

It's not a case of 'either or' though.

A horse can work just as well through it's back out hacking as it can in the school. Look at endurance horses

And working correctly has (or should) have little to do with their head position & more about engaging their tummy, pushing from behind & swimging through their back and becoming strong enough to become lighter in front. Although, obviously a horse can't do this when it's hollow and bracing. Pete really struggles to be on the vertical with his head position, as he has a thick jowl & physically finds flexion there tough - so he's always in front of the vertical. It doesn't worry me as I can still feel him engaging his tummy et al ...

There is no denying that Pete's movement has improved as he's got fitter & gained more topline - he used to pull himself about & literally scurried instead of trotting. Now he pushes from the backend, is much lighter in front and can work through much better. He can even trot for a 7.5 mark in dressage

I personally think cross-training is the best way to target a horse using all it's muscle group's most optimally - which is why I encorporate NH style work, classical in-hand work, flatwork, jumping & poles & lots of hacking. Sometimes into a contact, sometimes not

 

[PePo]

Added a photo to demonstrate my point! Mainy would argue he's not in a technically correct outline as he's in front of the vertical - but he physically struggles due to his confirmation.

But, he's soft (physically & mentally) in his neck & over his back, beginning to engage & lift his tummy, he's straight & beginning to take more weight back off his front into his quarters & working his glutes - for his level of muscular strength & training anyway

 

[Bodshi]

A horse can work just as well through it's back out hacking as it can in the school. Look at endurance horses

That's an interesting observation as most of the endurance horses I've seen are Arabs and proceed with their heads in the air and hollow backs. They're most definitely not on the forehand though.

Raf has a lovely 'endurance trot' - it feels floaty and powerful and effortless. However in my lessons this type of trot is considered bad and I have to try and get him to lift his back, lower his head and contain his stride. I know which trot I prefer and I think he prefers it too, but I carry on with the lessons partly because I am encouraged to believe it is good for him to develop his muscles this way and also if I'm honest because it's a challenge.

 

[domane]

We had this a while ago....

http://www.newrider.com/threads/how-good-is-correct.252600/#post-3080295

 

[Jessey]

Look at Western riding, the horses always look so free and happy and they are in no outline at all.

I beg to differ on this, certainly western competition horses (vs trail horses) are working in an outline, with their back end engaged and backs lifted, just because its a different outline than dressage doesn't mean it isn't there and they are slobbing along. It's less elevated and collected but without engagement through the back you'd never get a lope, sliding stop or flying changes etc.

 

[Jessey]

I went back to find this post http://www.newrider.com/threads/how-good-is-correct.252600/#post-3080315
I was asking a similar question I think.

 

[Mary Poppins]

And working correctly has (or should) have little to do with their head position & more about engaging their tummy, pushing from behind & swimging through their back and becoming strong enough to become lighter in front. Although, obviously a horse can't do this when it's hollow and bracing.

But why should horses be lighter on front? I agree that a horse who has his head up in the air is hollow and this may cause back problems. But what about the horse who plods along on his forehand with a low head carriage. He has 66% of weight on his front end as nature intended and is pulling himself along with his back legs trailing behind him. Why exactly are we aiming for this type of horse to redistribute his weight so he carries more weight behind? Are we doing this to try and please the dressage judges or are we really looking at the best interests of the horse? By trying to make our horses use their back end so they are lighter on front, surely we are putting more stresses and strains on their rear joints and this is why so many dressage horses need constant hock injections to keep them sound?

 

[Mary Poppins]

Raf has a lovely 'endurance trot' - it feels floaty and powerful and effortless. However in my lessons this type of trot is considered bad and I have to try and get him to lift his back, lower his head and contain his stride. I know which trot I prefer and I think he prefers it too, but I carry on with the lessons partly because I am encouraged to believe it is good for him to develop his muscles this way and also if I'm honest because it's a challenge.

Again I have to question why? What is wrong with his lovely floating trot? Who says his muscles need to be developed in a certain way? I understand the challenge part and it is always good to have a focus, but if you have an powerful and effortless trot which both you and the horse enjoy then why change it?

 

[Mary Poppins]

I personally think cross-training is the best way to target a horse using all it's muscle group's most optimally - which is why I encorporate NH style work, classical in-hand work, flatwork, jumping & poles & lots of hacking. Sometimes into a contact, sometimes not

I think you are spot on with this. A mixture of all type of work which uses all the muscles equally surely has to be best.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Once we start getting into collection then I don't think that is any longer about what is best for the horse but what is necessary for the discipline of dressage. I don't criticise dressage riders for that though. I think dressage is beautiful. But I would never argue that piaffe is good for horses, any more than Puissance is.

Very true. I love watching dressage and the puissance. And Badminton come to that. But really it could be argued that it is very cruel and the injuries that these poor horses face along the way are horrible.