When it comes to loading...he just doesn't have any self preservation

[gordysgirl]

Boy have I had a rubbish morning. Gord was due to be shod this morning in his second set of remedial shoes. I had to take him over to friends boss's yard as the remedial farrier doesn't come over this way. She pulled a lot of strings for me & the farrier even rearranged his day so he could be there when I could make it...

Needless to say my boy decided today he wasn't going to have new shoes. Not only I am really wazzed off with him but now I have let my friend & the farrier down & her boss is not impressed. So inturn my friend is not happy either.

We tried for over an hour & a half to get him in trailer, there were four of us. He has always been funny about loading, but once loaded he is usually very calm, eats his hay & dozes so doesn't appear stressed at all. He uses every trick he can, including a lot of rearing & leaping & eventually today, to my horror he went too far & fell over backwards. This has only happened to be once before when ridign a younsgter & was pretty scary to see right in front of me. It took him a few attempts to get up, but other than probably being a bit sore, remarkably got up unscathed. I was quite upset & gave him a few minutes to calm down too. We decided to have another go thinking he might realise that was silly but he kept rearing.

We tried lunge lines, food, pressure halter, chifney, everything we could think of, he just wasn't going. He didn't appear outwardly stressed, no sweating. and once you took pressure off him he just stood there at bottom with his eyes half closed.

I don't know what to do know. The worst thing is that vet said new shoes this week, but now he can't be done til next week so am worried about his feet now too now that he is finally on the mend with them.

So any ideas would be greatly appreciated...if we can just get him in the ifrst time, then we will take him out in it every night until he is bored with it..but we just cannot get him in. Am now worried to push him too much as scared he will go over again.

Thought about trying removing partition & travelling him without it? Anybody had success with this option?

Feeling pretty gutted now, without being able to travel, we are pretty stuck.

 

[Sticky's GF]

This may be controversial, but at prev livery yard there was one mare that was a total cow to load and her answer to everything was to rear. So....one day when they were 'trying' to load and some of us were having lesson with old school pony club instructor that instills fear into both horse and rider ....PC instructor took over and put a roller on her, standing martingale quite tight so she couldn't put her head up beyond 'normal' chilled out height. Mare didn't even attempt to rear and went straight in.

thankfully my lad doesn't rear so am not clued up on rearing but I def. know it worked for this mare as her means of escape had vanished.

 

[Chrisnscully]

Sounds just like my Scully - the thread got wiped off NR but you can go read about it on www.octarine-services.co.uk/riding/adventures_of_the_scullywag.htm see the entries for 15th April for the problem and 13th May for the solution.

 

[gordysgirl]

Sounds just like my Scully - the thread got wiped off NR but you can go read about it on www.octarine-services.co.uk/riding/adventures_of_the_scullywag.htm see the entries for 15th April for the problem and 13th May for the solution.

Sounds remarkably similar to Gord..the thing with him is, that for a few weeks he will go in perfectly, then he'll just change his mind again & won't! Like I said I don't genuinely think it is fear.

We had a parelli lady out a few years ago which he responded well to, but once we were actually going out & about & ding some work he stopped again.

 

[Chrisnscully]

Have you tried the technique? The key seemed to be standing in the trailer with very light pressure on the rope and as soon as there was the slightest move forward, Liz rushed down the ramp and pushed Scully away a few steps, then she walked back up the ramp and let Scully return to the foot of the ramp under her own power, wherupon she rushed down and pushed Scully away - after a few repeats, Scully walked up the ramp following Liz.

Next week we will do it all again once I have cleared out the rest of the lorry and I will video it for my blog.

 

[gordysgirl]

Have you tried the technique? The key seemed to be standing in the trailer with very light pressure on the rope and as soon as there was the slightest move forward, Liz rushed down the ramp and pushed Scully away a few steps, then she walked back up the ramp and let Scully return to the foot of the ramp under her own power, wherupon she rushed down and pushed Scully away - after a few repeats, Scully walked up the ramp following Liz.

Next week we will do it all again once I have cleared out the rest of the lorry and I will video it for my blog.

No..have only really backed him up when he planted to get him to move forward again...

Not sure whether I should get trailer out tonight while its still on his mind & just give him his dinner on ramp or to wait until tomorrow to start afresh?
Im imagining he is going to be feelign pretty sore everywhere after falling so heavily.

 

[laceyfreckle]

lace had decided she didn't DO travelling for a fair few years before i bought her. when i bought her she had been sedated and travelled to me but had also cut her leg so after that she decided she was NEVER travelling again. (including rearing, bolting, laying down on the ramp, and trying to spear herself against the sides, oh and once she thought she'd try jumping the trailer lol)

she now loads like a dream.

i tried everything to start with, even got 'pro's ' to help. in the end the only thing that worked was:-

lacey wearing normal headcollar and leadrope. me with a 'i've got all day attitude lol'

spent 5-10 mins walking her on a loosish lead rein making sure she turned as quickly as i did (not near the trailer at this point) she had to 'keep up' 'keep watching' keep occupied' backed her up on a loose lead waggling the lead rein at her chest. carried on doing this until she watched me, stopped when i did, walked when i did etc (not neccesarily walking at my shoulder, maybe a bit behind)

then we walked up to the trailer, minute she 'thought' about resisting (timing is crucial) i kept a very slight but even tension on the rope and waited, the minute the slightest hint of even just 'looking' at the ramp i let all the tension go, let her stand there for 5 mins or so then slight tension again until a response again. the first time i think i might have had that first slight but even tension for about 10 long mins before she gave a sign lol. but it does work, and everything is calm. basically they look, sniff or anything at the trailer/ramp and you let the tension go, they resist and the tension goes back on. if they rear you just repeat it again.

it really does work

the other key to success is tohave as few people about as possible, with lace it was just her and me and that worked best. don't bother having lunge reins or anything ready either.

it is a real pity i'm not closer to you or would have offered to have come and helped as its a lot harder to explain then it is to show.

 

[gordysgirl]

lace had decided she didn't DO travelling for a fair few years before i bought her. when i bought her she had been sedated and travelled to me but had also cut her leg so after that she decided she was NEVER travelling again. (including rearing, bolting, laying down on the ramp, and trying to spear herself against the sides, oh and once she thought she'd try jumping the trailer lol)

she now loads like a dream.

i tried everything to start with, even got 'pro's ' to help. in the end the only thing that worked was:-

lacey wearing normal headcollar and leadrope. me with a 'i've got all day attitude lol'

spent 5-10 mins walking her on a loosish lead rein making sure she turned as quickly as i did (not near the trailer at this point) she had to 'keep up' 'keep watching' keep occupied' backed her up on a loose lead waggling the lead rein at her chest. carried on doing this until she watched me, stopped when i did, walked when i did etc (not neccesarily walking at my shoulder, maybe a bit behind)

then we walked up to the trailer, minute she 'thought' about resisting (timing is crucial) i kept a very slight but even tension on the rope and waited, the minute the slightest hint of even just 'looking' at the ramp i let all the tension go, let her stand there for 5 mins or so then slight tension again until a response again. the first time i think i might have had that first slight but even tension for about 10 long mins before she gave a sign lol. but it does work, and everything is calm. basically they look, sniff or anything at the trailer/ramp and you let the tension go, they resist and the tension goes back on. if they rear you just repeat it again.

it really does work

the other key to success is tohave as few people about as possible, with lace it was just her and me and that worked best. don't bother having lunge reins or anything ready either.

it is a real pity i'm not closer to you or would have offered to have come and helped as its a lot harder to explain then it is to show.

I think maybe you should come on a little holiday up here...!?!!!

Thanks for the advice everybody..I will give him his dinner off ramp this eve I think & tomorrow & sat, then I have all day sunday to play around with him.

 

[Sexy Sietske]

The 'I don't care, I have all day, I dont even want you in the trailer' attitude works every time with horses that aren't scared and just think they know best.

Get him on a lead and walk briskly picking the bucket of food up that you strategically placed earlier keep walking, being very direct and forward and right into the trailer (a long rope might be useful) and park you botty in the trailer and sit there until he is ready to come in. If the thought of you eating his dinner doesn't get to him he will get bored after an hour (or 5 mins ) of doing nothing and come and investigate, ignorance isn't always bliss

 

[AengusOg]

The worst thing you can do is feed him on the ramp!

Think about it...........you're rewarding him for refusing to load.

He has learned that you are unable to counter any evasion he uses............in effect, he is in total control.

So, let's see.....you've tried lunge lines, pressure halter, chiffney, and everything else you can think of, and he still got the better of you.

I don't wish to upset you, but that begs the question...'but do you have any idea what to do with those things to encourage him to load?'

Don't feed him for not loading.

Learn how to use a pressure halter away from the trailer, and use it to train him to be compliant and respectful of your wishes.

Work with him every day for a week (or more, if you can be bothered) and make sure that when you ask him to do something, he does it.

Keep your temper and take the attitude that nothing else matters except you and he learning to work together.

When you do try to load him again, tell everyone to stay away.........nothing upsets difficult loaders more than people hovering around behind them, desperate to get the horse in and the ramp up.

Have plenty of time on your hands.

Don't release the pressure on the halter until you get something from him...........I see so many people trying to load horses by pulling and releasing before the horse has done anything......all that teaches a horse is that you have no committment, and you will give in at the slightest resistence from them.

Fix the breast bar safely and open the front door.......have the trailer parked along the side of a building or, preferably, at the end of a passageway, so that you decrease the horse's options for evasion.

If he plants on the ramp, don't let his feet touch the ground.......back him up and turn him in a full circle so quickly that you see the surprise in his face, then set him up square, and ask him to walk in again. He must be given a nice option (which is loading), or a not so nice option (which is getting pushed and pulled around). If you've taught him properly to yield to pressure, he'll quickly opt for the easy way.

When he does go in, take him right back out again, give him loads of praise, and call it a day.

When you're sure he will load, call all the relevant parties and arrange for him to be shod.

Be positive........believe he will load.......because if you get it right, so will he.

 

[gordysgirl]

The worst thing you can do is feed him on the ramp!

Think about it...........you're rewarding him for refusing to load.

He has learned that you are unable to counter any evasion he uses............in effect, he is in total control.

So, let's see.....you've tried lunge lines, pressure halter, chiffney, and everything else you can think of, and he still got the better of you.

I don't wish to upset you, but that begs the question...'but do you have any idea what to do with those things to encourage him to load?'

Don't feed him for not loading.

Learn how to use a pressure halter away from the trailer, and use it to train him to be compliant and respectful of your wishes.

Work with him every day for a week (or more, if you can be bothered) and make sure that when you ask him to do something, he does it.

Keep your temper and take the attitude that nothing else matters except you and he learning to work together.

When you do try to load him again, tell everyone to stay away.........nothing upsets difficult loaders more than people hovering around behind them, desperate to get the horse in and the ramp up.

Have plenty of time on your hands.

Don't release the pressure on the halter until you get something from him...........I see so many people trying to load horses by pulling and releasing before the horse has done anything......all that teaches a horse is that you have no committment, and you will give in at the slightest resistence from them.

Fix the breast bar safely and open the front door.......have the trailer parked along the side of a building or, preferably, at the end of a passageway, so that you decrease the horse's options for evasion.

If he plants on the ramp, don't let his feet touch the ground.......back him up and turn him in a full circle so quickly that you see the surprise in his face, then set him up square, and ask him to walk in again. He must be given a nice option (which is loading), or a not so nice option (which is getting pushed and pulled around). If you've taught him properly to yield to pressure, he'll quickly opt for the easy way.

When he does go in, take him right back out again, give him loads of praise, and call it a day.

When you're sure he will load, call all the relevant parties and arrange for him to be shod.

Be positive........believe he will load.......because if you get it right, so will he.

The thing is he is compliant & respectful of my wishes on the ground in every other way. He doesn't barge, pull, drag me, hange behind or anythign like that. He yields to pressure & can safely be handled by anyone. He is exceptionally well mannered.

He also doesn't plant on the ramp he walks very briskly onto it & then swings off to the side & goes straight up or backwards.

I totally understand what you are suggesting & I will def try it..I guess its hard without seeing teh situation in front of you.

I agree feeding him for not loading makes sense not to do. However I think my plan was to try & make friends with the trailer again after a bad experience that morning. He successfully ate his dinner off the ramp after a lot of sniffing & fidgeting. I did not ask him to go up it, just to relax around the trailer & not see it as such a drama...is this not sensible?

I can back trailer into barn & enclose ramp with big metal doors which will hopfully reduce exits.

The thing is I am more than happy to spend every night of the next few months religiously practising & working with hime - thats not a problem, but I simply cannot put off having him shod - its a matter of soundness.

Arghhh...

 

[AengusOg]

I find it very frustrating when I read these posts and I am unable to help.

It's very difficult to explain how to deal with every eventuality in text, and I realise how difficult it is to load a horse when you've not had the practise that some others have.

I've only failed once to load a difficult horse, and later found out that the owners had tried for seven(!) hours one day, causing him to bang his head on the roof of the trailer, before failing miserably, then calling me.

They expected me to perform a miracle in the space of about two hours when, in reality, the horse actually needed weeks of work to help him to get over the damage they'd caused.

Unfortunately I'd offered to do a complimentary demonstration for a riding club and that was the horse they gave me to work with. What started as an audience of about forty gradually diminished to about eight D) and, as darkness fell, I was obliged to give up.

All the time I worked with him the horse tried his best and I really felt sorry for him.

When I'm working with loading issues I go into another place (so to speak) as the work requires great patience and compassion, even in the face of evasions and sometimes dangerous behaviour. It has to be a
'private' affair between handler and horse, with each becoming more involved with the other as the work progresses, often to the exclusion of all else.

One has to be constantly aware that, even if the exact reason is unknown, there is a very good reason why the horse refuses to load. In fact, it's better not to know why they won't, as fair, consistent handling is the only way to persuade them.

Each time the horse puts in an evasion, the handler must patiently and firmly set them up and start again, without any fuss, or shouting, or rough handling........just calm, consistent repetition.

Most horses respond very well to that method, but there are those which have been so badly misused in previous attempts that they will require extensive remedial work before they can be expected to load again.

There are differing opinions as to whether horses are taught to rear during the loading exercise, or whether their rearing stems from evasion and they then use it to avoid loading altogether.

Stepping off the ramp and/or running along the side of the trailer invites the same debate.

I think horses learn very quickly the failings of their handlers, and they will repeatedly perform the same evasions as long as the handler fails to respond correctly to them.

For example, if a horse has reared once and the handler failed to deal with it immediately, the horse will undoubtedly rear again and again until the handler gives up due to concerns for their, and the horse's safety. That horse, when tried again will probably very quickly use rearing as his favourite evasion.

Similarly, if a horse steps off the ramp/runs backward/spins/plants.......and the handler fails to deal with those issues correctly or effectively, then the horse will use these evasions with mind-numbing regularity until the handler gives up, exhausted and disillusioned.

So you may observe by this that, instead of the exercise being one of simply trying to load the horse, it has now evolved into a series of exercises which must be performed and perfected in order to persuade the horse that there really is nothing he can do which will result in his being let off and returned to stable or field; in fact he must learn, whether it takes hours, or weeks, that he will be required to walk onto the trailer, sooner or later, and that all his evasions are to no avail, as the handler will patiently deal with them one by one until he desists from using them.

Some horses I've worked with have been young, unspoiled individuals with no previous bad experiences to block their progress, they are merely being asked to deal with the unknown, but most are older animals which have experienced some idiotic attempts to load them, perhaps having been hurt or abused in the process.

All of them, with the exception of the one described above, who I believe would have come right in time (due to my personal circumstances, I recommended another practitioner to his owner), have been persuaded to load after all the avenues of evasion had been addressed and closed to them.

I think, gordysgirl, having corresponded with you on similar subjects in the past, that it may be that you really need some professional help with your horse.

I have written lots on this site regarding how I deal with rearing and other serious evasions in relation to loading, and could do again, but words are only that, and are open to so many interpretations that, unless you saw my methods demonstrated for you, you may struggle to appreciate exactly what I mean, as timing and action are crucial to success.

Perhaps you'd be best to find someone who could come and work with you and your horse, and help you to break the problem into component parts and deal with them.

You are by no means unique in your predicament...........try not to let it frustrate you.

 

[laceyfreckle]

I think maybe you should come on a little holiday up here...!?!!!

lol wish i could..........if only you were a little nearer!

seirously though if you want any more info or just a chat then pm anytime