Training methods

[MrA]

Honestly I can feel you all rolling your eyes from here and I was heartbroken to how the other thread ended but I do find it so interesting and not entirely unpredictable that is the way it went. I apologise for any offence caused and certainly do not think higher of myself than any other horse or human.

I'm my opinion we still have limited knowledge of horses, there is alot of tradition over science in the horse world and no one fully understands the complexities of training BUT it is ALWAYS something we should be striving to improve.

Anyway I just wanted to apologise and clear the air as I've certainly been feeling like I did wrong since then. I will continue to stand up and say when I think actions are wrong though and I hope others will do the same with me as I am certainly not perfect!

 

[Kite_Rider]

I didn’t read the last few pages of your thread @Ale and I’m sorry that it turned into something that made you feel bad.
I doubt very much you came across as holier than though and you shouldn’t feel like you need to apologise for your personal opinion, this is a forum, there’s bound to be different opinions and each individual has a right to their own including you.

 

[MrA]

That's okay, nothing bad was said or anything and I respect those who wanted it shut and what they felt. This thread was more to apologise and move on if anyone did want to continue any of the chat

 

[Mary Poppins]

I don't know what happened to the last thread either, but I can't think what you have to apologise for? I also don't understand why it was closed down - perhaps it struck too close to home for some?

Training methods is something that I have been thinking lots about over the last few weeks as I am (hopefully) going to be the proud owner of a 3 year old next week. I think that it is very easy to become stuck in a way of doing things just because that is the way that you have always done it, and this stops the mind being opened to new ideas. I for one am definitely not rolling my eyes at you, I admire how passionate you are about training methods and animal welfare in general. These are important conversations to be had.

 

[chunky monkey]

You dont need to apologise or feel bad.

 

[MrA]

I love that having chats like this and the other thread that make me really think and re-evaluate my actions and training methods.

 

[Skib]

I believe that animal psychology, conditioning, behaviourism etc is important to horse training. But it isnt essential that the horse handler knows that that comes into the activity. Moreover I do believe in it and I just bought a book on groundwork by Rio Barrett so I have some exercises to do.

One thing not often mentioned is the question of power in the horse human relationship. I was in the school last week and not in the saddle because I had a violent fall from Ella when she bolted with me 6 weeks ago. She fled when horses cantered towards us (normal horse behaviour) and I failed to regain any control or at least enough control to stop her. Having got rid of me she continued for a very long way and the police (unfortnately) came on the scene to check I was OK but also preventing me from going to catch her and riding her home. This is only the second time in my 20 years of riding that I have returned on foot and leaving the horse in control.

My ground work session with Ella last week involved my regaining power. This was not so much a question of force, but of my reducing tension so that by the end she was observing my movements and stopping and turning with me on a loose rope and with a hand gesture. I have always been confident round horses by reminding myself that I have a better (human) brain than an animal has.

I had intended to ride in the school this week to reassure myself that I was in control but famiy health problems meant I couldnt get to the yard. But almost every time I lead Ell;a from the box she tries to establish that she is in control. She rubs her head on the stable door post, she pulls towards grass growing between the cobbles in the yard and by the gate. She is used to being handled by young agile people and has no manners fit for being led by an old lady.

So Ale the question arises whether we do exercises including games like clicker training for the benefit of the horse or to establish and reinforce our own mastery over the animal? With Ella I think it only benefits me. With Ale who is not ridden, I guess it benefits him.

 

[PePo]

I don't think you have anything to apologise for @Ale

Polite but meaningful and robust conversations can never be a bad thing as far as I'm concerned. I enjoyed the thread as its fascinating to see other people's POV.

It's OK to not agree with everyone but that doesn't mean there's conflict or ill feeling, just different opinions.

Glad to see you back posting!

 

[Mary Poppins]

I'm interested in the concept of 'control' over a horse. They will always be bigger and stronger and ultimately impossible to control. Last week an old friend was quite shocked that I was buying a 3 year old and he told me "The first thing you need to do is to make yourself the boss. If you are not in control of him, he will walk all over you". I prefer to think of us working in a partnership together. Control often means fear and I don't believe that fear should come into it. Assertive leadership yet, but this is based on the fact that the horse has chosen to follow you and respects and trusts you to keep him safe, not because he is scared of you.

 

[diplomaticandtactful]

I'm interested in the concept of 'control' over a horse. They will always be bigger and stronger and ultimately impossible to control. Last week an old friend was quite shocked that I was buying a 3 year old and he told me "The first thing you need to do is to make yourself the boss. If you are not in control of him, he will walk all over you". I prefer to think of us working in a partnership together. Control often means fear and I don't believe that fear should come into it. Assertive leadership yet, but this is based on the fact that the horse has chosen to follow you and respects and trusts you to keep him safe, not because he is scared of you.

When Fleur was 2 she was a total brat, utterly dangerous. We taught her to yield and walk nicely by being quiet with her and keep asking her but first of all by teaching her that her job was to move her feet wherever we went, she had to follow. Once she agreed to that she was fine. She still is. I can walk in any direction and she is at my shoulder all the time going backwards forwards sideways etc. In a rope halter, with a loose rope. It took a lot of work, but you can walk her down the hill in the field the others go galloping in before her and she stays with you quite happy. She gets it. Suze is the same. Buddy would try to drag you!

 

[Jessey]

Ale I don’t think you have anything to apologise for, I don’t think the other thread was shut because of the way it went or because of disagreements, just that rehashing the same points about the specific subject of the post (the mark Todd video) wasn’t productive and if left open could have divulged into sides/arguments for the sake of it.

I find the concept of +r training interesting, but, I do not believe in its exclusive use, there are too many badly behaved children, dogs and horses in modern times since passive parenting/ownership has been more popular (ducks the rotten tomatoes ). It has its place but I do believe training should look at the natural communication methods of the animal in question and allow that to influence our communication with them too.

Control to me doesn’t mean fear, it’s about respect. Perception and language also influences our communication on these subjects, especially when we are using short text messages it is easy to jump on a single word or phase as right/wrong but we have to be patient to understand if we both have the same perception of a word to truly know if we’re understanding each other, that’s why I often ask people to explain further, not because I disagree (though I might) or am questioning their knowledge or anything, just because I’m trying to better understand.

 

[Skib]

Different understandings of the word control? I am of the Maxwell school. I must have steering, movement forward and reverse and brakes before riding on public roads. Just like a car

 

[Jessey]

Different understandings of the word control? I am of the Maxwell school. I must have steering, movement forward and reverse and brakes before riding on public roads. Just like a car

It’s more about how you achieve it that we’re discussing

 

[Mary Poppins]

Different understandings of the word control? I am of the Maxwell school. I must have steering, movement forward and reverse and brakes before riding on public roads. Just like a car

I think that debating what the word 'control' means is very worthwhile. I agree that I want all of the above before I venture out hacking with a youngster. But am I in 'control' of him, or are we working together with a mutual understanding and respect? The word 'control' indicates that someone has ultimate power over another. If you think about it in a domestic violence situation between 2 partners. The words 'coercive control' are used to describe one partner who controls the other through force or threat of violence. One person is scared of the other and complies due to fear. However, when you look at a happy partnership, both partners are operating on their own autonomy, are respectful of each other and are working towards a common goal. That is the type of relationship that I want to have both with people and my horse.

 

[Mary Poppins]

It’s more about how you achieve it that we’re discussing

I think that the definition of the word 'control' is important because it defines a mindset. To some people, control does mean dominating and being the 'boss'.

 

[Jessey]

I think that the definition of the word 'control' is important because it defines a mindset. To some people, control does mean dominating and being the 'boss'.

To me you are wanting to define how you achieve control, not what it is…..
to me control is having the horse do as asked when asked.
How one achieves control could be with a variety of methods from force to bribery to repetition to +R Etc.

To me someone says get control, they are referring to the what, not necessarily the how, though in their mind the will likely be assuming that implies using their preferred method of gaining control.

I do want a partnership most of the time, allowing the horse to function independently but with me, but I do need the final say in some situations, ie hacking buddy falls off and their horse runs for home - a horse will naturally want to stay with the herd (other horse) but I need to be able to say no we need to stay here and deal with the injured person, overriding what the horse wants, and I want him to do it because he trusts my judgement not because he’s scared of me.

 

[MrA]

I think that debating what the word 'control' means is very worthwhile. I agree that I want all of the above before I venture out hacking with a youngster. But am I in 'control' of him, or are we working together with a mutual understanding and respect? The word 'control' indicates that someone has ultimate power over another. If you think about it in a domestic violence situation between 2 partners. The words 'coercive control' are used to describe one partner who controls the other through force or threat of violence. One person is scared of the other and complies due to fear. However, when you look at a happy partnership, both partners are operating on their own autonomy, are respectful of each other and are working towards a common goal. That is the type of relationship that I want to have both with people and my horse.

Couldn't have put it better myself and this is what I think raises the counter argument of well if you've ever made a horse do anything then you can't comment. But you can make a horse do something in different ways. Do we respect horses enough as beings with their own minds and feelings that when they say no, there could well be a reason behind it. Horses are so intelligent that they can come to their own solutions of problems alot of the time, but these solutions might not be what we want or may take longer than we expect.

 

[Jessey]

I feel like we’re saying the same thing

 

[MrA]

Perhaps one of the big horse organisations can put some money into some more research into training and how to improve it all

 

[Mary Poppins]

I do want a partnership most of the time, allowing the horse to function independently but with me, but I do need the final say in some situations, ie hacking buddy falls off and their horse runs for home - a horse will naturally want to stay with the herd (other horse) but I need to be able to say no we need to stay here and deal with the injured person, overriding what the horse wants, and I want him to do it because he trusts my judgement not because he’s scared of me.

That is another interesting aspect to debate. In the case of having to choose between a horse and a human, can we assume that the horse will automatically want to join the other horses? Or can we think about the horse choosing the stay with the human because he feels trust and safety with that human? There is a difference between allowing the horse to have their own mind and make their own choice to stay with you, or thinking that the horse will stay with you because you are the 'boss' and they have learnt that there will be a consequence if they disobey.