teaching ground manners

LexxLizz

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Dec 11, 2011
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If I am going to take on my friends sec d as a loan and over summer more full time I have decided (with her permission) that I am going to go back to basics and create a bond/aim to be respected and have respect with him.
I am going to see him again tomorrow and he can be very bold and pushy on the ground (he hasn't done it with me, yet) so I thought of doing some ground work focusing on manners with him.

I found this article http://www.equusite.com/articles/ground/groundRespect.shtml
That I mostly agree with and think the techniques sound good - what does everyone else think?
Also, and the more important question, how much work in this area can I do with a horse? Is it a case of little and often or could I thrash out three or four of these techniques solidly for a few hours?

Please.excuse my ignorance as I have never worked with a horse in this way before and so I'm a total newb. :redface:
 
I'm probably not the right person to reply as I think a lot of groundwork is basically correct handling & doesn't need to be done as a seperate exercise. Consistent handling at all times & clear boundries are something all horses understand, & what those boundries are are decided by the handler not the horse. Also confidence & calmness on the part of the handler, horses can read a bluff at a hundred paces & will react accordingly.
 
It depends on the horse - I usually do 20 minutes with madam - and about three with piggywig.

She copes with that long, but his little brain doesnt - and always go back to a task you are good at so you finish on a good note.

Only quickly skimmed the above, but 101 horsemanship exercises is def worth a nosy for ideas on what to do. The on thing that really stands out from the above link is the lack of trying to understand WHY the horse is behaving in an aggressive manner. That may seem obvious, but really it isnt at all. Far too many horses are labelled as "naughty" "rude" "bolshy" "nasty" and "aggressive" with no consideration for WHY. I shant get up on my high horse, but there is always a reason - and its not always easy to find to understand. I have one of those horses, who actually would (and does) hurt people. She is 11"3 and it takes two people to rug her when I am not there - one to hold her head and front leg up whilst the other does her rug to try and stop her kicking and biting. She will always be like this, and no amount of manners work will change this - manners work helps her to be politer about expressing her opinions, but wont stop her altogheter.

She was labelled all of the above, and shouted at and physically reprimanded frequently. She has a disease that causes her body to reject her skin - so its a pain thing, and a fear of pain issue - but for two years, other than hellish sweet itch I had no idea. Not obvious, and a rare problem - but the poor pony suffered a lot because of her "bad behaviour".
 
I'm probably not the right person to reply as I think a lot of groundwork is basically correct handling & doesn't need to be done as a seperate exercise. Consistent handling at all times & clear boundries are something all horses understand, & what those boundries are are decided by the handler not the horse. Also confidence & calmness on the part of the handler, horses can read a bluff at a hundred paces & will react accordingly.
Thanks. No harm in giving things a go and learning myself what's best though is there?

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Only quickly skimmed the above, but 101 horsemanship exercises is def worth a nosy for ideas on what to do.
The on thing that really stands out from the above link is the lack of trying to understand WHY the horse is behaving in an aggressive manner. That may seem obvious, but really it isnt at all. Far too many horses are labelled as "naughty" "rude" "bolshy" "nasty" and "aggressive" with no consideration for WHY.
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She was labelled all of the above, and shouted at and physically reprimanded frequently. She has a disease that causes her body to reject her skin - so its a pain thing, and a fear of pain issue - but for two years, other than hellish sweet itch I had no idea. Not obvious, and a rare problem - but the poor pony suffered a lot because of her "bad behaviour".

Thanks for the '101 Horsemanship' suggestion, how would I find that? Is it a book? An article? A website?

Also, I agree with you about getting to the bottom of why horses are labelled how they are labelled, but I chose to use the words 'bold' and 'pushy' personally to decribe sec D, just as descriptives. That is how I have been told he can be although I haven't witnessed it myself. With work like this, I feel sure his reasons for having an attitude will come to light.

And your poor pone :( :( no wonder she can be the way she is. What is the name of the disease - I would just like to read into it (I'm sad and find that kind of thing interesting). However, let it be known that I do not, and will not ever physically reprimand any horse in my care unless it or I were in grave danger. I have seen horses around their owners who have had a beating and it's a vicious circle - quite often meaning they can't get within an inch of the horse.
horse misbehaves - horse gets a slap - horse attempts to run away and kick out - horse gets a slap - horse is fearful of owner so evey time he/she gets close they kick out - horse gets a slap...
IMO, what is that horse learning??
 
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Hahaha, I asked a similar question else-where and have just been told on another forum that I should:
"Stop trying to search for that 'Disney Princess and her white horse' bond, because it's never going to happen. Horses are herd animals and need to be shown who is boss otherwise they will take the p*** out of you for all you're worth. I understand you're a newbie but you really need to wake up and smell the coffee before you get trampled. The owner has told you the horse is bold and pushy. Set in stone who has the upper hand before he becomes completely unmanageable for you. And hitting a horse isn't a bad thing, so that it learns and to teach it to listen."

My reply?

"Just call me Pocahontas, and he's bay actually."
 
Hahaha, I asked a similar question else-where and have just been told on another forum that I should:
"Stop trying to search for that 'Disney Princess and her white horse' bond, because it's never going to happen. Horses are herd animals and need to be shown who is boss otherwise they will take the p*** out of you for all you're worth. I understand you're a newbie but you really need to wake up and smell the coffee before you get trampled. The owner has told you the horse is bold and pushy. Set in stone who has the upper hand before he becomes completely unmanageable for you. And hitting a horse isn't a bad thing, so that it learns and to teach it to listen."

My reply?

"Just call me Pocahontas, and he's bay actually."

Is this person for real?!!!! :eek:
 
I agree with carthorse. I handle horses at the yard which don't belong to me, and they behave with each person on the ground as that person allows or demands.
It isnt a case of teaching a horse "manners" and then the horse being transformed and applying that lesson across the board. And you certainly need to remind such horses how you personally expect them to behave, and coach them and rebuke then as needed.
Far more important is you - and your own learning. Dont leave the human element out of the equation. If you want to learn how to make a horse do as you wish from the ground or in a stable, and if you find it easier to learn by following a course, then that is fine. The website you have found sounds Parelli-ish to me.
My own first steps came from Kelly Marks - simply asking a horse to stand back as I entered the stable and to lead politely. There was no round pen, no lessons - everything shown in the normal day to day handling of the horse.
My own experience is that the absolutely best way to learn was to go to clinics and watch good trainers show owners how to lead horses - I had an Australian video too. You can pick up and mimic body language by watching other people. And that is easier than copying from a book or written advice.

Since it is in the nature of horses to respond, you as a person get immense reinforcement too. If something works, you tend to do it again, and the more you do it, the more the horse complies.
It is a very good idea to get compliance on the ground, not just for safety - but my RI suggests that if you are picky about the horse behaviour before you mount, you are more likely to get compliance when riding.
 
Hahaha, I asked a similar question else-where and have just been told on another forum that I should:
"Stop trying to search for that 'Disney Princess and her white horse' bond, because it's never going to happen. Horses are herd animals and need to be shown who is boss otherwise they will take the p*** out of you for all you're worth. I understand you're a newbie but you really need to wake up and smell the coffee before you get trampled. The owner has told you the horse is bold and pushy. Set in stone who has the upper hand before he becomes completely unmanageable for you. And hitting a horse isn't a bad thing, so that it learns and to teach it to listen."

My reply?

"Just call me Pocahontas, and he's bay actually."

I wonder if I smacked them in the mouth they would learn to keep it shut like

"a horse will learn manners if you smack it?!"
 
PMSL. Thats made me smile. A lot.

I have and do occasionally physically reprimand mine. When its warranted. As said before, I dont mind her expressing an opnion - I dont like it being expressed rudely. If she warns and then kicks because I ignore her, fair enough - but to kick out without any ears/tail swishing/teeth flashing is rude. She has a form of pemphigus foliaceous. I wouldnt read up on it, its pretty deperessing and miserable!

You need to have leadership and authority, but that is built up as you know
 
I don't believe in physical punishment as a way to train horses, but I'll elbow Ziggy in the ribs or punch his backside if he cuts across me rudely. TBH he hardly ever does, and it's usually because he in among his fieldmates, but that is no excuse. I need to be top horse in their herd or I won't be safe in among them, as they are all very much bigger than me.

I suspect he doesn't think much of my physical contact compared to what he and his fieldmates dish out to each other. However, I know he can feel a fly on his sides, so I don't believe he's insensitive.

Similarly, if he mugs me for the treats he knows are in my pocket, he'll get "No!" and if he tries again my cupped hand on his muzzle - makes a big noise, gives him a start, doesn't feel like much.

101 Horsemanship Exercises is a book by Rio Barrett which is constantly recommended on this forum. Here's the Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/101-Horsemanship-Exercises-Improving-Groundwork/dp/0715326724/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326369490&sr=1-1

Enjoy!
 
I agree with some of what you've said Skib, now it has been explained better, but surely doing the work I am talking about can't have any adverse affects and means I get to spend time doing something productive with the big ol' welshie instead of just mucking him out, giving him cuddles and leaving when the weather is bad?
I intend on giving it a go anyway, and seeing how far I get, you never know - I might come back and poo poo all of the techniques, but at least I've learnt!

Thankyou for the link Jane, and of course, a tap on the nose or a slap on the neck I agree with to stop cheeky behaviour (ie: mugging for treats, or barging you to get to hay etc).
When I say 'physical punishment' I was thinking more along the lines of beating with a lead rope or punching and kicking for the odd 'pushing their luck'. Which is something I wouldn't ever do, but have seen done.


And apparently Laura and Dannii that person IS serious - they didn't seem to want to call me Pocahontas and told me I am 'just another dumb girl who thinks their horse is in love with them' -- haha! :wub:
 
but surely doing the work I am talking about can't have any adverse affects

depends on which way you look at it tbh. :frown:

I am a relative newbie in the horse world, i dont own and until recently i had a share horse (didnt work but not for this reason) as i wanted to learn from someone more experienced the basics of horse care/lunging/ground manners as tbh i would hate to ruin a horse because i dont have the knowledge of how to do basic groundwork.

I have oodles of books on groundwork, feet, tack, basic horse care, how to ride etc etc and while they are informative and useful to me. It is not the same as someone who will teach me how to lunge (its not as straight forward as just stand in the middle of a pen with a long whip and asking the horse to move) . There is body posture to consider , and eye contact use.

I know everyone has to start somewhere , and you have to learn somehow but keep in mind that horses are not machines and so they might not do as the book is telling you..

I wouldnt want to be responsible for making a horse difficult to manage for others especially if said horse was not actually mine to start with. Perhaps i am just over cautious..:unsure:

ETA that prob sounds like i am getting at you but im not ..but even with my short time at the share i have learnt loads about lunging, what to do when they swing their bum at you etc etc
 
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I was going to recommend the same book and it doesn't surprise me that someone has beaten me to it as i got it on recommendation from NR... However I had watched some lessons and had my own lessons being taught very similar styles to the book so it supported learning rather than teaching, it might be worth having a look at having a lesson with groundwork as well?

I'm not sure that you can have an adverse affect doing the sort of exercises in that book, I did a few minutes groundwork on my mare on the evenings it was too hot to ride last summer and it has paid off coming through winter although it is continuously reinforced leading, in the stable etc.. And obviously we have to remember our own manners..

Good luck Pocahontas!
 
I'm not sure that you can have an adverse affect doing the sort of exercises in that book, I did a few minutes groundwork on my mare on the evenings it was too hot to ride last summer and it has paid off coming through winter although it is continuously reinforced leading, in the stable etc.. And obviously we have to remember our own manners..

Good luck Pocahontas!

^^^^ THIS!!!
This is excatly what I'm talking about!! I intend on doing this work when the weather is less than riding-standard in menage or otherwise, and then reinforcing it at opportunities that arise naturally. Obviously I wouldn't reserve it just for 'training times' otherwise there would be little to no point :)

Hahaha, you nutter, thankyou!
 
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I was going to recommend the same book and it doesn't surprise me that someone has beaten me to it as i got it on recommendation from NR... However I had watched some lessons and had my own lessons being taught very similar styles to the book so it supported learning rather than teaching, it might be worth having a look at having a lesson with groundwork as well?

I think groundwork lessons are a good idea - I've had a few, and I learned an awful lot about body language, and the effects of positioning, and communicating with the horse.

That website looks like a rehash of Parelli to me - you might as well do the Parelli 7 games, a lot of people in here have found them good. Otherwise Kelly Marks is well worth reading, and so is Richard Maxwell - there are some good Richard Maxwell videos around on the internet too.
 
Another vote here for the 101 Horsemanship Exercises book by Rio Barrett. I have it, i love it, it works wonders :smile:


The first part for me is respecting space/backing up and stopping/starting/turning with you at your shoulder and mirroring all you do.


Hmmm i `ve had an idea .....
 
I would say little and often for teaching good ground manners, and in my limited experience, I have found that the what works for me is consistency - no good letting Storm get away with something one day and then reprimanding her the next - got to be quite clear, because "blonde" as she is, she learns pretty fast and you can just as easily teach the wrong thing as the right!!
 
Yeah me too, consistency is key. It's hard work sometimes but always try to react and act in the same way, it will makes things alot easier.

I have to say that I have and do reprimand Bob at times. Not so much these days but sometimes he does just need telling. However only for unreasonable behaviour like barging through me or lifting a leg to me. I don't see that as friendly or reasonable so I'm afraid he gets a sharp smack as a result.

I really think it depends on the horse how and when you tell them off. When I watch bob in the field he's a real wind up merchant. He will nip, push, nibble until his field mates will play with him. Mostly they enjoy the game and join I but sometimes he takes it too far and is swiftly shown a couple of hind feet. He's the same with me sometimes but waving legs about is not polite or safe. He never takes offence and a actually I think it reinforces and strengthens our bond.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys :) I'm going to keep on working with him and I've had some wonderful offers and conversations with a brilliant friend :) so I have all the determination now to make this work!
Will keep an update of how were getting along.
 
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