Teaching a stroppy mare some manners!

[RRA]

I've had my mare for just over 2 months, she spent the first 2/3 weeks settling in and then I started working her in the school, not as much as I'd like for various reasons but now we're back on track and I've some time off to spend concentrating on her for a couple of weeks before I start a new job and we establish our new 'routine'

As she has done very little since being broken a year ago (she's now just 5) I am doing everything slowly. I have not hacked her out except for the odd wander down the farm tracks as I want to work on our relationship in the school and feel I have her respect before we venture out in the BIG wide world!

Anyway, today was my first time of being completely alone with her, no OH to just sit patiently in the school in case I need him...she's fine once you are on its just getting there that's the hard bit! I was determined to make it count as I want to really get into schooling her now so when winter sets in and our outside school isn't useable I will hopefully be much closer to feeling confident enough to take her out more. I do waffle....

The main aim today was to get her to stand still whilst I mount. This has been a bit of a battle which I am determined to crack...it felt like it took me 15 minutes or more today before I finally got on..I even had builders working on a nearby roof cheer when I made it into the saddle! She knows my mounting block or stool and as soon as I put it near her she starts fidgeting about. I'll get her to stand next to it and just stand on it without mounting until I think she is not going to move off but as soon as I make a move to actually get on she moves away from me...its so frustrating. I try to get on at different points in the school and I don't take her straight to it - usually lead her round a couple of times first. I will persevere with this but if anyone has any tips please let me know. One bonus is when I get on without someone holding her she will walk on for me when previously she would just plant herself and kick out!

I think she is basically trying to boss me about and get the upper hand like she has with the other horses. She has become fussy about being tied up not wanting to stand still etc unless she can eat! and will make all sorts of fuss when I try to tack her up although she has always been a bit of a madam in that department. I have found that when she plays up if I sit down next to her just look at her and wait for a few seconds she will come up to me all sheepish and I can then carry on - she is very smart and I'm thinking she expects a reward or her feed before co-operating but I don't want my horse thinking she can have things on her terms!!. Anyone else had this with their horse. She is very affectionate with me otherwise she knows I'm her 'mum' and will play in the field with me and follow me around so we have started forming a bond of sorts.

I love riding her and she enjoys her schooling once I've finally got on!
I am not prepared to ignore her behaviour she needs to learn her manners and as she's young and green I need to make sure I'm consistent

sorry..I always end up writing loads

 

[wundahoss]

Hi,

Sounds like your mare is quite green and hasn't had a great education so far. Especially as she's so new to it all, I think creating good attitudes and associations with you, riding & whatever else you ask of her is of primary importance. I agree that you shouldn't just let her current attitudes pass, as they will only become stronger the more practice she gets.

I think she is basically trying to boss me about and get the upper hand like she has with the other horses. She has become fussy about being tied up not wanting to stand still etc unless she can eat! and will make all sorts of fuss when I try to tack her up .....she expects a reward or her feed before co-operating but I don't want my horse thinking she can have things on her terms!!

I personally value my horse's happiness and willing partnership very highly and so therefore I do things on their terms to a large degree. The trick is working out ways to teach them your goals in a way that gives them what they want. I don't really care if the horse thinks she has trained me to give her treats or such by doing some behaviour.

Regarding expecting feed, I agree that you don't want to make it a condition that she or you come to rely on. It is actually more of a 'lure' if you give something in order to encourage a behaviour to follow, and can also easily be seen as bribery by the horse and so become ineffective, as well as an annoying expectation of hers. So make sure it's a random, uncommon thing for you to give feed *before* she does whatever. However, if you give a reward *at the time of* a 'good' behaviour(or at worst, within a couple of seconds after it), this will positively reinforce the behaviour.

Re 'becoming fussy', remember how green she is, and standing tied is one of the hardest things for a herdbound prey animal to whom escape is the primary survival method. Being tied and tacked up, which it also sounds like she's never been properly desensitised to, is therefore even harder for her. I think what you need to do the most is slow down your requests and desensitise her to standing still, being tacked, mounted, etc. Below is a post I wrote to someone else on the subject....

MOUNTING

At first, before you start to mount, don't immediately put your leg up to mount when he stops. You've got it right in reinforcing him immediately with dropping the pressure, but drop *all* pressure, including trying to mount, which is the big one in this. Just stand there a few seconds & let him relax.

It will be even easier & more effective - & fun for you both - if you add positive reinforcement(something Good) such as a treat, scratch on the withers, etc to the negative reinforcement(removal of a Bad Thing) of removing pressure.

Then your next step can be as you described. Hold the reins firm but not tight, one foot in the stirrup, or even an intermediate step of standing facing him & leaning on the saddle as if you're about to pull yourself up. Just go with him, with a little pressure on the reins, just enough to make it a little uncomfortable, and just go with him when he moves. The instant he stands still, drop the pressure - reins and weight/intent - to reinforce the behaviour. Repeat this until you're putting on and taking off the pressure without the horse moving.

It's also a good idea to increase the time you stand there(horse's patience) in small increments AFTER you've got him doing it for a short time, as with the above. When the horse has mastered the above, start keeping your foot in the stirrups for longer before removing. If he gets antsey, just hold a little pressure on the reins & go with it until he stops, again reinforcing immediately.

The next step would be half mounting. You might start this by bouncing up & down, between the ground & standing in the stirrup, or you might start by standing & staying up in the stirrup until the horse is still. Depends on how safe you feel at this point. Either way, negatively reinforce immediately he stands. Repeat this exercise as for the above before putting a leg over & the same.

It will also be beneficial to work on this in very short sessions rather than trying to get it happening all at once. You can do about as many 5 minute sessions each day as you like, so long as you break them up with some stress free relaxation in between. Even if this also is only a few minutes.

After the pony has learned all this, it will also be to your advantage to continue these exercises regularly for a while, without necessarily getting on. Then do them less often, until it is just occasionally and when you need to. Once he learns that he can and that it's easier to stand and brace himself for you, he will choose to do this, so long as what follows isn't to hard for him.

Something to also keep in mind is whether it hurts him when you mount. Even a perfectly balanced & braced horse with a perfectly fitting saddle & perfect rider will feel some level of discomfort as he's pulled(often dragged) off balance if only for a second. Therefore I recommend using a mounting block to make it as easy as possible.

 

[puzzles]

100% ditto wundahoss.
It shouldn't be a case of expecting your horse to obey you without question or her own opinion. If you want this then buy a robot . It is a partnership after all.
You need to let your horse know you are listening to her and considering her point of view. When she feels that she has been shown the benefits of doing as she is asked (i.e. being rewarded with a rub and kind words, and the easing of the pressure of being asked when she stands still). It's ok to make her think it's her idea to do something.
Doing these things should help to make your time together much more positive, and help change her attitude to a more positive one.

Good luck!

 

[SmallHunter]

When we got Kane he was very much like this he had been at a sj yard where the riders were chucked on and off they went he didn't understand that he had to stand still and if you even touched the reins whilst trying to mount he would walk forward. So would stand him next to the block if he moved he was circled away and asked to stand again and this was repeated until he stood long enough for me to get on then once i was on he was rewarded with a treat by me so he associated me getting on him with something good (the whole time without touching the reins but that was another problem entirely).
Also what helped with him was when i was schooling doing lots of transitions to halt and asking to stand not for long as soon as he relaxed and wasn't trying to go forward i would pat him on the shoulder and ask him to walk on. Now he will stand stock still for me to get on and doesn't move until i ask him to.
The 'fussiness' sounds very much like my mare B she has never been a fan of being groomed (she doesn't even groom with the other horses) and she definitely likes to think she is the boss and will sometimes get very fidgety when tied up to be groomed we found the best thing to do was just get on with the grooming because she is very clever and realised if she made a fuss about something it would stop being done so now we keep going quietly and calmly keep grooming and she settles very quickly once she realises she isn't going to get her own way and then falls asleep

 

[RRA]

100% ditto wundahoss.
It shouldn't be a case of expecting your horse to obey you without question or her own opinion. If you want this then buy a robot . It is a partnership after all.
You need to let your horse know you are listening to her and considering her point of view. When she feels that she has been shown the benefits of doing as she is asked (i.e. being rewarded with a rub and kind words, and the easing of the pressure of being asked when she stands still). It's ok to make her think it's her idea to do something.
Doing these things should help to make your time together much more positive, and help change her attitude to a more positive one.

Good luck!

I am very much of the same opinion of you both - I probably just didn't put it down very well, I certainly don't want a robot! I am just very keen to ensure what IS her just being mareish gets checked so that it doesn't get worse and I do know when she is trying it on - today it took less than 1/2 the time to get her tacked up and get on and I am more than happy to reward when she is good or perhaps just needs that little bit of encouragement to comply(!) but again I have to be careful because she is greedy and can be a bit bolshy when she'd rather be eating - its finding the balance!! I love her to bits and she recieves plenty of love and attention every day and I am glad she has her own mind and is smart that's why I chose her rather than one that just goes through the motions - because I know that would bore me!!
As she has so much to learn still and I have lots to learn with her as we go along I am just wanting to get it right so I end up with a well mannered horse but not a dull one - I have ridden many in the past that have had bad habits that I don't want her to develop. I realise its a long road ahead but its what I wanted and I am loving seeing our partnership develop.
Thanks for the advice though I really do appreciate it and I do put much of it into practice

 

[RRA]

oops - technical difficulty!

 

[RRA]

I personally value my horse's happiness and willing partnership very highly

So do I! - just in case that didn't come across in my post

 

[Janette]

Star wouldn't stand either..... It was her way of controlling the situation and therefore - me! she had a whole repetoire.

She is however, convinced that she is on the edge of starvation - constantly. (She isn't...) So everytime I managed to get on, I gave her a treat. She soon twigged that me onboard = food.
I can now get on first time, no fidgeting, turns on the forehand, stepping forwards/backwards/sideways, or leaning over!

However - there is a down side. If I get on a few times without the reward, she begins 'dancing' again. I suppose there has to be something in it for her........

 

[RRA]

Star wouldn't stand either..... It was her way of controlling the situation and therefore - me! she had a whole repetoire.

She is however, convinced that she is on the edge of starvation - constantly. (She isn't...) So everytime I managed to get on, I gave her a treat. She soon twigged that me onboard = food.
I can now get on first time, no fidgeting, turns on the forehand, stepping forwards/backwards/sideways, or leaning over!

However - there is a down side. If I get on a few times without the reward, she begins 'dancing' again. I suppose there has to be something in it for her........

I am finding food/treats a very valuable asset at the moment! I am trying to reduce the amount where I can as she gets used to doing certain things without a fuss!. I think the mounting thing will take some time and perseverance - if I take my time and get on 'unaided' she will then walk on for me when asked. If I have someone hold her whilst I mount she will then refuse to budge when asked.......as if she has to have the last word...love her!

 

[wundahoss]

However - there is a down side. If I get on a few times without the reward, she begins 'dancing' again. I suppose there has to be something in it for her........

Perhaps you've been too predictable? When teaching a behaviour, initially you want to reinforce it every single time, but once the behaviour has become pretty solid, then it's best to gradually & randomly reduce the reliability of the reinforcement. This actually strengthens the behaviour further, as it becomes a fun challenge - in the manner of a poker machine v's a vending machine. It encourages a horse to try harder, in order to receive a reward, so will enable you to start improving the behaviour further. It will also teach her not to assume & not to work only in the presence of treats.

 

[Janette]

Good point. Thanks for that.

Who wants to be predictable?