Struggling with bit choice

Dannii5691

Dannii5691

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Nov 16, 2009
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I am really struggling with a bit to ride womble in. Especially for jumping too.

So far -

eggbut snaffle - strong and takes off
EBS full cheek - slightly more control but still strong and takes off
bubble - behind the bit, doesnt travel forwards resulting in jumping catastrophies. Also gets tongue over and sticks it out as a way of avoiding.
hanging cheek with lozenge - dislikes. Throws head in the air. Opens mouth.
Pelham - ok but not ideal. Can back off but is most comfortable in this. Better when ridden with 2 sets of reins but not ideal for jumping

Main problem is he is strong and throws his head in the air, once he has his head he buggers off in any which direction he fancies.
 
Sounds a bit like Rubic. I found that I needed to do a lot of work with Rubic on our schooling to get her to listen to me. It worked fine at home at first then eventually transferred to competitions. Rubic was more a head down and tank but she backed off a Pelham and over bent in a Dutch gag. Have you tried a copper roller or Waterford?

It sounds like he is resisting and not really accepting the bit. What is he like on the flat? I think the copper roller or even something with sweet iron will encourage him to accept the bit and listen to you better. Cobs generally have fleshy mouths and you might find that he finds a Waterford more comfortable.
 
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He is still strong in the school, prefers to school in a field and genrally goes better out there. The problem is that if I give a little with my reins he just flys off so I feel like im constantly riding him into a strong contact (and he can and does work on the bit) however if I put a stronger bit in he over bends and wont move forward. He covers alot of ground fast when hes travelling forward but when hes backing off it he puts tiny little joggy pony strides in that are just not rideable. I was thinking about a Waterford im just worried about inadvertently yanking him about in it. He does just run through a snaffle though and sometimes im having to really put all my weight behind me to pull him back. Jumping in one is a bit of a hairy experience
 
Looking at those bits apart from the snaffle, poll pressure seems to be the common thing. I would as rubic suggests try something like a Waterford or even just a French link or loose ring with a lozenge. Snaffles can cause great nutcracker action which a lot of horses don't like. malaika came to me running away from any contact,she had been ridden in a variety of bits before I got her. I tried her bitless and can honestly say it was the best thing I ever done with her. just started back to basics on the ground in a rope halter,then long reining off it them riding. We moved to a scawbrig then settled with the orbitless as I could have a little more by moving the rein if I needed. She hated anything,butted or bitless with poll pressure.
 
Have you tried a miler combi? They use a combination of nose and bit which may work for you, but waterfords are not that strong or harsh - they just stop the horse from grabbing hold.
 
Personally I would forget jumping until I had something that listened to my body and voice, then bring in the rein if they didn't listen to that afterwards. Whatever bit they go well in I would still be thinking of rein last, body and voice first.

If he is a head up I would do schooling exercises that encourage him to lower the head generally and stretch his back. Perhaps pole work? His build means the head will naturally go up, my cob puts her head up but in a nosey moo way, not a go off way.
 
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I found Jim hated anything with a joint in it, and double joints/lozenges were worse than single joints. I came to the conclusion he hated the instability in his mouth. A low port pelham ridden with two reins was acceptable, but like Womble he would back right off it if two much curb was used & the one time I tried roundings was an experience I will never ever repeat & ended up with hours in A&E! He has a tendancy to curl up behind the bit then power off from behind & run through his shoulders, but can also on occassion get incredibly strong - purebred ID, I don't know if you've seen pics of him.

What I found worked best for him was a full cheek Myler mullen mouth. I know it shouldn't work well in theory but in practice it does & that's all I care about lol. It's quite slim & has a decent curve on it so it does allow some tongue room. It's a very still bit (though it does have independent side action so lets me be more accurate than a traditional mullen) which encourages him to take the contact rather than curl up behind it before sodding off - at a push I'd rather have strong than headless horse! And, very importantly for me, it has full cheeks & on Jim this is vital because if things start to go wrong it means I can quickly get some bend in his neck & send him sidewards so he can't use his hindquarters against me as effectively - I will always ride this horse in a cheeked bit because this trick is sometimes the only way to stop him going & dreadful as it sounds it can require a degree of brute force that means there's a real chance of pulling an uncheeked bit through his mouth (take away his option to open his mouth & he's not a happy bunny, which in turn means I'm not a happy mummy!).

Maybe it's worth looking at a milder mouthpiece to encourage him to accept the contact & then find some tricks that give you a way of coping if he gets strong? To me nothing is worse than a horse that evades the contact because you then have nothing & any bit is useless. It may also be worth looking at different nosebands.
 
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I had this with Rusty, particularly the tongue over thing ( we tried everything including tongue guards, and metal tongue schooling bits, to no avail!). The best bit we ever had, out of 20 or more, was the Neue Shuelle Verbindend mouth piece with the universal (mild gag) sides. He went pretty nicely in it and didnt put the tongue over, or if he did he actually chose to move it back, but i had more brakes than a snaffle.
 
A myler mullen mouth barrel bit was Rubic's flatwork bit. She was always very happy in it and we could jump at home (and small heights away from home too) in it
 
Lots to consider. I have a lesson on thursday with a local instructor at the indoor up the road and i am debating taking some different bits with us.
I have never actually ridden him in a straight bit. He has always been driven so hes probs always been in a liverpool. It may be worth a try.

The problem with his being compact is as you say nf his build means natural response is head up. Short neck = no control and for a big guy hes pretty bloody nimble on his legs.

Also he has the ability to be trotting in a straight line with his head bent to the side looking at something across the field. Which is a nightmare schooling as im asking for bend to the left (for example) and hes coming round the corner looking completely the wrong way at something going on 3 fields away, and if I ask stronger I get a ott reaction. If hes motorbiking and I put my leg on he swings it so far round he clips the boards and then spooks and then launches into the air etc etc etc.
He can bend. He can work nicely. He just seems to have some very strong opinions of what we should be doing and unfortunately they are very different to mine.

We have done some pole work. He loves it. Doesnt slow him down though. And if I interfere to much he will clip it and then again over react and start throwing himself about like a petulant teen.

Is it thursday yet. Im looking forward to lessons ...
 
Dannii5691 said:
The problem with his being compact is as you say nf his build means natural response is head up. Short neck = no control and for a big guy hes pretty bloody nimble on his legs.

Also he has the ability to be trotting in a straight line with his head bent to the side looking at something across the field. Which is a nightmare schooling as im asking for bend to the left (for example) and hes coming round the corner looking completely the wrong way at something going on 3 fields away.

He can bend. He can work nicely. He just seems to have some very strong opinions of what we should be doing and unfortunately they are very different to mine.

We have done some pole work. He loves it. Doesnt slow him down though. And if I interfere to much he will clip it and then again over react and start throwing himself about like a petulant teen.
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Yes I get the "rubber necking" as I call it, my instructor has said we lack bend, nope we lack concentration and focus. Try and get that neck to face the right way, you will understand what that's like with Womble. Actually rubber neck isn't a good term, as its a set neck.
Ask if your instructor has any bits and what they suggest since they see you first hand. Mine has been better with contact since we changed the size of the same bit. Not talking outline here I just mean accept me on the end of the rein.
I was going to write about getting him off the forehand and transferring your weight to the quarters, but you will also know when a cob takes off its like being fired out of a cannon!
 
I will ask her on thursday. She owns and trains dales and cobs to a high standard in dressage which is why I went to her. Ive known her for a while through fb (and her yard is on the same road as mine) and im hoping she has a good idea on how to tackle the cob.

Ive just made a pledge for a straight bar to try on facebook, purchased a sweet iron loose ring french link (to try for flat. The french link mouth piece is what he is most comfortable in until it comes to jumping, he is less fussy in his mouth in It, and at less than a fiver from ebay im happy for it to sit in the tack room. He really dislikes a peanut but likes a french link. Strange hoss. Im happy to have to swap and change bits for different disciplines)
 
Must add hes rarely actually plows round on his forehand. Yes ... cannon covers it. Does my back no good when hes launching at 0-60 in a split second
 
Bending his neck to sightsee is slightly different to the bend I'm talking about, I'm meaning a strong bend through the entire neck but not allowing falling out through the shoulder. Then, if needs be, bend the rest of him around your leg & send him sidewards so his hinds are crossing over. The downside is you really do have to be ahead of them because this isn't a manoeuvre you can safely perform at speed & it's very hard if you've already allowed them to set that neck. I do understand about short thick necks & the "fun" they can cause!
 
I would like to try a waterford. Just worried he would back off it. Though tbh im perfectly willing to try anything atm!
 
Dannii5691 said:
If hes motorbiking and I put my leg on he swings it so far round he clips the boards and then spooks and then launches into the air etc etc etc.

We have done some pole work. He loves it. Doesnt slow him down though. And if I interfere to much he will clip it and then again over react and start throwing himself about like a petulant teen. /
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This sounds like he lacks confidence generally? If he knocked a pole down you will get a big reaction if he reacts to touching a trotting pole. I don't think I would be jumping until I had a horse that was focused on where it put its feet calmly and didn't lose or increase impulsion going over the poles in trot and canter.
If he approaches too fast I would circle away until I had him calm, or better still lunge until he was calm and its no big deal having poles.
 
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Dannii5691 said:
.........

Also he has the ability to be trotting in a straight line with his head bent to the side looking at something across the field. Which is a nightmare schooling as im asking for bend to the left (for example) and hes coming round the corner looking completely the wrong way at something going on 3 fields away, and if I ask stronger I get a ott reaction. If hes motorbiking and I put my leg on he swings it so far round he clips the boards and then spooks and then launches into the air etc etc etc.
He can bend. He can work nicely. He just seems to have some very strong opinions of what we should be doing and unfortunately they are very different to mine.

We have done some pole work. He loves it. Doesnt slow him down though. And if I interfere to much he will clip it and then again over react and start throwing himself about like a petulant teen.

........
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Reading this again it sounds to me as though you haven't got him securely going from hand to leg, and also that he isn't paying enough attention to you - if you're riding him he shouldn't be thinking about what's happening three fields away, never mind looking, & if he even tries to focus on anything other than you you then you need to do something to get his attention back. Until you can do that no bit will have the desired effect. I'd never say horses aren't allowed an opinion but his mustn't override yours, and at the moment it sounds as though that's what's happening. You or someone need to spell it out to him that hissy fits just mean more work & won't get him out of anything.

Edited - should read from leg to hand! Duh!
 
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I was once told straightness is the key to good bend and it's taken me years to really understand it, but when you ask him to move his hip what do you ask him to do with his ribs and shoulder at that moment? motor biking is generally loss of balance through the whole body and pushing the hip out would exacerbate it, the hip needs to come in under him to elevate the inside shoulder to achieve balance. I have to imagine a bike, if I was flying round a corner leaning in what would happen if someone pushed the back wheel out? Vs slowing and moving the inside front handle bar back/up?

I've found cobs often make controlling all parts at once tough, they can often look one way and go another, they also often have chunky tongues leaving less room for other stuff in their mouths which is possibly the case as you say he doesn't like a peanut but does like a French link which is much slimmer. If he was driven in a Liverpool he could well just be finding the joints too much in his mouth. Jess was ridden purely western for years and in a low port straight bar curb bit, now in English she is happiest in a butterfly Pelham with double reins as the Mullen mouth and curb are more similar to what she was used to, it's not about the force I can exert with it as I could (and have) happily gallop her in a head collar if I wanted to, she just finds joints too fussy and a head collar on the roads is questionable.

It's such a mine field, perhaps a little kimblewick with a straight bar and tongue relief (a small port) might be worth a try, milder than the Pelham but similar action and with only one set of reins it might suit you both x
 
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I would look at a kimblewick for a cob. They tend to appreciate them, they aren't harsh, but allow them tongue room.

Ideally, all our horses should be saintly and stop off a single tiny movement, in the real world, when they are excited or in company this rarely happens.

Bits should be acceptable, not put anyone in pain, but also have the ability to STOP a over excited horse galloping in a group.

Sadly, the little seat movement to indicate stop in a horse that is solo schooling or hacking, doesn't often work cantering groups or fun rides or hunting. Just the way it is.
 
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