SCAWBRIG - brakes and steering?

a scawbrig doesn't have much in the way of emergency brakes. a few of our school ponies wear them - i rode one out last week and needed to ride almost entirely from seat and legs - as far as rein control went i might as well have been in a headcollar, to be honest. she went where i put her and stopped when i asked, but she needn't have if she hadn't fancied it. the pressure on the lower jaw is minimal with normal rein aids.
 
Regarding the dr cook, I dont really like them personally. They don't provide instant release from pressure, which can teach some horses to lean into the pressure and become heavier in the hand. Quite a few complaints about rubbing on the horse's head too :(
 
I suppose the question is, what do you want to achieve? As Mehitabel says - it's pretty much the same as a headcollar - because basically that's what it is. You're going to have to work a lot harder to get the same refinement in a headcollar that you would in a bitted bridle. That's not to say it's bad or impossible - just a lot more patience and consistency would be needed in the re-training.

The Dr Cook seems to offer more of a "half-way-house" - but if your horse is used to a bitted bridle, again it will need to be retrained to get the same refinement bitless - and it can have the mentioned negative effects, depending on the horse and the consistency of the trainer.

However, if "brakes and steering" are all you need - it shouldn't be too hard to retrain to either.

Another point to consider is why you want to go bitless in the first place. Bitless isn't necessarily kinder than bitted - and some bitless bridles that close in on the horse's head can actually cause the horse to panic as it can set off the natual claustrophobia, or lead to leaning or other undesirable habits. The Dr Cook is a case in point, as Nuttymare points out.

I'm certainly not anti-bitless, but I do see a lot of people switching to bitless out of fashion or because they think it's more "natural" and then getting into difficulties because they don't have the time/patience/skill to retrain the horse to the new equipment.

Cheers
 
My pony and I didn't get on with the Dr Cook - he hated it. I tried it at all sorts of different pressures and heights of noseband, but he was unsettled, worried and just pulled like a train in the end. He panicked at the pressure around his head. After a couple of weeks I gave up and reverted to our normal bridle with magic bit and I have a happy pony again! I don't ride with pressure on the bit at all, I leave his mouth entirely alone unless I actually want to ask him to turn or to slow down, and then I use very gentle aids to which he responds just fine.

I feel that it our case I am being kinder to him by using a bit in this fashion, rather than persevering with the Dr Cook. I would imagine he would be the same in a Scawbrig. It may be something to do with the fact that he is old pony and set in his ways, but there again we both are! :D I think there is a danger in going bitless for the sake of it. If you are having problems with bits, yes, by all means try it. Otherwise stick to what works for you both.
 
Perdita

I'd echo Kate F's question before answering yours... as it would help to understand what you are hoping to achieve.

I have a bit of a collection of bitless - tho Dr Cook is one I don't have - just because I already have too many "things" :rolleyes:

I have

- english hackamore. Has lever action.
- scawbrigg. Mild, just nose pressure. Will have some steering as reins are attached on the side - BUT depends on the horse knowing and responding to nose/face pressure

there is also a similar option from the US called a jumping hackamore. It doesn't have the slight tightening effect a scawbrigg can have so is like a cross between a scawbrigg and a sidepull. I'd like one of these but can't justify it given I have both scawbrigg and sidepull !

- sidepull. normally western. Can be rope or leather (mine is leather). Its basically a stiffened "U" of either rope or leather than goes over the nose, and reins attach to the end. The U is closed by a strap under the chin to keep it straight etc.

- bosal - a stiffened loop used in western with or without a bit (so can be used as part of training - start them bitless and then add the bit and slowly transition to it)

As with riding with a rope halter (which I also have), the reins attach to the chin so you really need to be steering more with seat and weight and/or neck reining.

Lodge Ropes (and other rope halter makers) also offer "hybrid" rope halter bridles which give rein attachments to the side so add to the steering :) My mother has one of these and I've ridden my mare in it - but she already understands bosal and normal rope halter so its not surprising she goes well in this ! My mother's little mare was backed NH so was started in a rope halter, and again goes very nicely in this. I believe it was designed for an endurance rider. They also do a "half-bosal" (which I also have :D ) : more info on their website. If you can't find it, say and I'll post it.

I don't have: Dr Cook, German hackamore, Happy Wheel.
 
Oh Blimey! What are we hoping to achieve? Sounds a bit complicated for us:D Will try to explain and not miss anything out.

Hope I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, as owned pony for nearly three years and went bitless shortly after getting him.

However, he has not been in much regular work for a while, his health problems and mine. So although we have been bitless for three years, there isn't much of it!

The reason I went bitless in the first place, was because he hated the bit and being bridled. He would chew and mouth constantly fretting, chucking his head about when ridden, and started to rear when trying to bridle him. Teeth checked, were a little sharp but nothing major and all sorted out. In that time he was ridden in a headcollar with reins attached, and a copy of the dr cook, a webbing crossunder. As he could be cantered in an open field in the headcollar safely.....I just decided not to go back to a bit.

So.....we are both about to begin an exciting new journey within the next few weeks, coming back into work properly, together:)

I do want to stay bitless because I know he is more comfortable and calmer without, but I need to decide which bitless we will use...I had planned on the Dr cook then started to worry about pressue and wondered about the scawbrig, hence the thread!

When he was away on loan we had a half bosal ( from lodge ropes!) but his loaner didnt get on well with it and found she had little control ( steering wise i believe) I do understand that something as simple as that requires retraining and working more from seat/weight/legs.

I will not be that good when we first start! All we want to do for the rest of this year at least, is potter about the farm in walk, and when fit and confident enough to try our first trots and canters together:)

He does lead very well, you can turn his head easily and he is very responsive ( referring back to the face pressure question)

So reading back over what I have written......maybe we should start with the scawbrig ( does anyone else want to say scRawbrig?!!:rolleyes: ) if it has a sufficient amount of steering ( as long as the horse responds well to face/nose pressure?) and then only move to the Dr Cook later if we find that it is too mild?

I will be honest and admit that I will be rubbish and doing little more than mooching about and trying to regain nerve and build a ridden relationship with him, I won't be up to doing a lot of retraining or anything complicated, bit or no bit:eek:

I hope this is sufficient information to recieve further advice, please ask if I havemissed anything vital, and thank you for the advice so far:)
 
if you have enough control in a headcollar then you have enough control in a scawbrig. i have in the past ridden Sj rounds and jump-offs in one, it is perfectly possible to do all sorts in them, but the horse must be cooperative and you must use seat and legs.

what is missing in the scawbrig is the ability to say 'no, actually, i mean it and there will bne unpleasant consequences if you don't do as i ask' - which you have in a bit or a more severe bitless. you are relying much more on the horse cooperating; you can't 'make' it do anything short of physically hauling the head round. so if that is fine for your current purposes, then the scawbrig will be fine.
 
I'd back up Mehitabel, with the possible exception of saying that if the half-bosal was yours, it might be worth trying again given you've already successfully ridden in a headcollar. (and it saves you buying something new).

I will be honest and admit that I will be rubbish and doing little more than mooching about and trying to regain nerve and build a ridden relationship with him, I won't be up to doing a lot of retraining or anything complicated, bit or no bit
Click to expand...

what is "mooching about and regaining nerve and building relationship" if it isn't "retraining" ;) as they say "keep it simple" - why make it complicated if you don't need to ? I suspect the reason things mostly get complicated is because people need or want to do everything *faster*, *sooner* rather than taking the time it takes... you sound like you are going to take the time it takes, which is the best possible thing to do :D
 
Thanks cvb, that's appreciated:) It will certainly be slow!:D Unfortunately I sold the half bosal when raising money for new saddle......which I still haven't got:eek: :rolleyes: It did go to another NR member though!

Thank you again guys, will try the scawbrig to start then:)
 
Hi all :0)
Perdita, give us an email and we will send thru a great little exercise we use for down transitions & brakes...not rocket science but it is based on 2 things we really like, conditioned response training and encouraging natural collection with all the benefits of physical and emotional balance (what ever that means...lol) It suits most riding styles and can be used bitted or bitless...

Half bosals, they are just a refined rope halter....again not rocket science but if a horse gives to applied or implied pressure, they work well. Its the training not the tack that works.

Dr Cooks....sorry to hear that others have had the same problems we experienced with this bitless bridle. A couple of years back, i raised these problems in this forum and all heck broke loose.... oh for the good ol days :0)

I recently played with a modified scawbrig. it had the rein rings attached to a rope that went up the cheek and over the poll. The rope did nothing with a direct rein, but when both reins were 'yanked' it caused extreme poll pressure.
We declined the offer to make this particular item for the clinician that wanted to offer these as a 'cure all problems' bitless bridle. i didnt even get to keep the sample... i wanted to cut it up to make a nice light hanger for a bosal !

cheers all

Cathy.....was the lighter rope OK???? It does force you to use more body positioning as you dont have the weight to throw at a horse, but we like that idea. It sometimes does help make a responsive not reactive horse.
 
Lodge Ropes - I lurve the lighter rope :D I use it with both Fi and Rosie.

Having the longer distance with Rosie (from a 12ft rope) showed up that she is actually quite anxious about being away from you, and every time you say "good girl" she stops and turns in to you :rolleyes:

So its helped to build her confidence about being out there, staying out there, and keeping going :D

so much so that we can *jump* on the line now !! (Initially she would jump, and on the landing stride turn 90 degrees and stop ! This was a bit much to expect a rider to cope with so I wanted to sort it from the ground first).

Talking about my long list of kit makes me realise how little of it I'm getting to use cos of Fi's soundness issues :(

And I'd like to see those exercises as well - do you still have my email ?

Did the "modified scawbrigg" still have the part behind the chin ? Or did it just go over the poll ? I'm struggling to imagine something with both.
 
i tried a libby's scawbrig on angel last year. albeit very briefly. she ignored it altogether, no steering at all, let alone brakes :D she just leisurely ambled off wherever her fancy took her, so i gave up on that :)

Julia
x
 
I had a scawbrig on amber and got dragged home, same sor tof thing with the dr cook, my horses find it to easy to lean on it, resulting in coming home early at horses wish or lots of rubs on maddie.
I have a happywheel now and love it, horses are so much happier in them, and i can actually stop when it really need to. Im ok in something like a scawbrig/dr cook if i have plently of field to try and stop in, but when i have a car coming towards me and a need to stop, i like to be able to stop them quite quickly. I like my happywheel as i can adjust it to suit the neddies, so have more nose pressure, then i lift my hands to properly engage the curb.
 
Cathy..have just emailed, sent the info and some other things on which i would appreciate your comments. Thank you my friend.
Glad to hear rosie likes her new rope. How is mums wip wop?.....still have the image of her striding along wipping and wopping as she goes...lol.

Re happy wheel bits...cant find anything like them in OZ but are interested to have a play with one. I guess i can always get one from the UK, paypal turns the world into one big shopping mall.

cheers all
LR
 
just re read the thread and had another thought (it hurt)
we have 7 horses & ponies and 1 foal (another due now) but we have 5 bridles, perhaps 20 bits but only use FM for starting then snaffles,
but bitless......we have 4 leather bosal all different, 4 prototype rope side pulls, 3 rope hackamores with mecate reins, a small mountain of half bosals, half bosal nosebands attached to bridles, 3 enduro prototypes, dr cooks, no bit, spirit and a no name cross under, several other bitless bridles of various designs and what do we ride in??????? a rope halter with a 12ft lead tied into reins.
If we can get the horse to go & whoa, move in all 4 directions and do it all with soft cues in a rope halter, it seems that it does not matter that much what we hang on their head.
Well except for my pinto mare, she insists that whatever i put on her has to look good :0)

cheers
 
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