Pablo (again..) next steps...ourselves or external trainer?

[Esther.D]

Warning: very long post!

I think most people on here are familar with the issues we have had with Pablo over the last couple of years. Basically he is a very kind, gentle horse who has had this trust abused in the past through bad experiences. We are slowly regaining trust but we are at a bit of a cross roads at the moment.

Last weekend we started doing Parelli with him and were stunned at the success as he accepted a stick all over him (except his most sensitive area - his belly) which is amazing considering the phobia he had built up around sticks - when we first bought him you couldn't even walk past his stable with a broom without him cringing into a corner and actually walking his back hooves up the wall to try and get away.

So we were really thrilled with that progress and the fact that he trusts Stephen enough to believe that he won't hit him. Especially as he allowed the stick all over him without holding his breath, shivering or jumping back which he would usually do with something like that.

However we are undecided where to go from here. We are certainly going to continue with the Parelli as it as been so successful so far and we believe it is a very good training and desensitizing tool for both Pablo and us.

The issue is whether we should look into getting outside help to take it further (beyond the basics I mean and towards riding again) or whether we are better continuing ourselves through the Partnership programme and then think about re-introducing the saddle and rider at the point suggested in the pack.

Unfortunately due to their location (3 miles off the nearest surfaced road, accessible only by quad bike, 4x4 or foot) outside help would mean moving him onto someones yard for however long. I am rather loath to do this as he would be away from the herd and us (we work full time so could only be there at weekends and evenings) and in a totally different environment. I am concerned that even if a good result was reached at another yard it might not be as successful at home with us (especially as we could only continue the work at weekends due to the dark nights).

However on the bonus side of getting outside assistance, we have not been doing as much work with him as he needs, partly due to situation (including him being hard to catch and us only being able to work him at weekends and having no flat area let alone arena to work in) and partly due to lack of motivation due to the combination of a year long plateau in progress and 99% of people outside saying we should sell him as he was no good If we could get things kick-started with outside help then it might get it all off the ground and help us move forward.

Ideas welcomed?

He is a lovely horse, who is extremely obedient and 100% bombproof in traffic, never shys, loads easily, never shown any agression even when scared, easy to handle and generally a dream to have around. But doesn't trust people, particularly when connected with sticks or mounting (even unsaddled he is nervous of people acting as if to mount). He accepts a saddle really well on the lunge etc and has never bucked with it, he is just nervous of people around it as he expects them to mount. Oh and the saddle has been recently professionally fitted.

That is quite enough from me for the moment. I'm sorry it is so longwinded but it is hard to explain the situation. Any questions - ask away, any opinions feel free to give them.

 

[Mehitabel]

is it imperative to you that you start moving up a gear now?
how about carrying on as you are over the winter, working on the mounting issue (what are you doing for it atm?) and then re-evaluating in spring.

in spring, when the days are longer and you'd have more useful evenings, he might then benefit more from going to another yard and you having a bit of help. it'll still be an upheaval for him, but at least it might be a more useful upheaval. you'd also be able to be more continous when he comes home again.

it is very hard to try to make serious progress on a problem like this over winter when you're so limited with time.

 

[Esther.D]

No it is not imperative we make that kind of progress now Es. The problem primarily is that if we don't make some kind of plan/progress then we'll end up with another year spent doing nothing very constructive. By late next spring we will have had him 3 years and although we have achieved a better relationship with him which is huge progress on its own we have not actually advanced anywhere. When we bought him I rode him a couple of times, he was novice and jumpy but rideable, three years on we haven't even got back to that point again...and this is partly due to his issues (I don't want to get back on until he is happier with the saddle as we would be asking for trouble somewhere along the line) and partly due to our morale being battered down by constant criticism (not on NR I must add..everyone on here has been great and supportive).

Even if we had a point to aim at for the spring then it would give us some focus to work towards...


We seem to be stuck on the mounting issue......we can long rein, lunge etc no problem but as soon as you put a saddle on he tenses up, stops breathing and flinches as soon as you touch it. He will accept someone leaning over with or without the saddle but is very tense and unhappy. He has been wearing his saddle for almost all his work for the past two years and things have not improved...we have had a new saddle fitted professionally to check that it was not a saddle issue. We just don't seem to be able to move forward on this. This is why we started the Parelli to try and build up his general trust and see if that made a difference.

 

[Mehitabel]

how long have you actually been practicing the mounting? you might just have to get on and do it often enough that he twigs it won't kill him.

we're currently doing this with a pony who we had to break in (i have my suspicions that the owner has tried, failed and taken it out on him) who is petrified. he is now being led round at walk, but still holds his breath and the eyes are white when someone is on board. we are just 'riding it out' doing him every day, never getting cross and he is very slowly relaxing.

it won't be much fun for pablo at first, but maybe you're just going to have to lean over at the end of every single session.

alternatively, we commandeered YO's grandson's huge 'bob the builder' who is about 3 foot tall. we tied bob onto the saddle with a pair of trousers stuffed with clothes, and lunged him. he nearly turned himself inside out at first, but it didn't take him long to realise that a) bob wasn't going anywhere and b ) that bob didn't hurt or do anything. again, not terribly nice for him at first, but he was too dangerous to get on again.

 

[anuvb]

Just wanted to add that if he is tensing up with just the saddle on then it seems to me that you need to work on stopping this, before you even think about mounting. So if nothing else, you could work on this over the winter, and then perhaps progress to Es's suggestion.

If he doesn't trust the saddle, before you put some pressure on it, he's not going to trust it with the weight on - he'll just associate the two together as being big horrible things. If you can get him ot the point where you can lunge, feed him, groom him and walk him out with the tack on and no tension, it's a much nicer and easier progression to the whole backing situation. A bit like what you have done with the stick/crop.

Then I'm with Es, I think once you start backing him you must keep it up and be consistent and that yes you may find it easier to have some help to reinforce this. Do you have no freelance instructors/trainers that could come out to you in your area to help you with the backing once the weather gets better?

 

[cvb]

Hi Esther D

Wouldn't it a risk to move him to a yard where other people are not necessarily going to interact with him in the way you want ? Given you only just started Parelli with him, why not persevere a little more (another week or so ) and see where it goes. After all, he has accepted the carrot stick which I know is a really big thing for him !

Why not try some friendly game with girths and rollers and then a numnah and roller and just gradually build it up ? Numnah plus roller is pretty close to a saddle.

Also you could do stuff like just having the saddle sitting on the ground and do circling and squeeze, or you stand next to it and ask him to yo-yo, or yield his head down to pressure etc.

Just get him used to having the saddle around like you have started with the carrot stick.

I know you've done some of this before - but it is amazing the difference it makes if you do it 'parelli' ie prefaced with the other games and as part of an overall attitude rather than just a task.

Surely its worth a try - if only to make a more informed decision about whether to move him ?

 

[Claire Louise]

why don't you try getting someone who does a lot of parelli to come see him once a month or something?? They could give you the help you need , confirm where you should be and guide you to the next step at home where the horse will feel more comfortable.

As I'm sure most here at NR have had experience with neglected horses or cruelty cases(and I mean in the getting them better way) We all understand how hard it is and if any one tells you any different just tell them that happiness and trust is more important than doing things fast and not bothering about the horse.

 

[chev]

It's hard to offer advice in this situation. Having been through the same thing with Gelfy, I can sympathise. We've got to that same place where although most of his issues seem to have been resolved he's still not really riding and we just don't seem to be making any progress at all.

My decision has been made; Gelfy will be going to a yard for some intensive work next year, since I have neither the facilities nor the time to do much more with him. I do feel with horses like Gelfy and Pablo there is a tendency to reach this point where all the early bonding work seems to conclude but nothing much else seems to change.

I can understand your fear that a change of home and people, however temporary, could set him back again. Would it be possible for the outside help to visit and work with him where he is, with a mind to moving him once he's happy with the new person? It might help with any problems associated with moving him, and if the outside help were not prepared to visit and assess him in his own home anyway then I'd be reluctant to use them whatever.

I've decided that the best bet with Gelfy is just to bite the bullet and send him away - he's happy to trust me, and I think the only way to get him past this mental block he has about moving forwards in tack is to force the issue a little. I'm hoping that even though he won't really continue the work with me until the days are a lot longer again, that a period of sympathetic training without me might just help him over that last hurdle. Once he's realised that it's ok to work, the idea is that he'll stop trying to evade it with me too. We'll see.

On the other hand, if Pablo is suddenly improving again with the Parelli, it might be worth continuing down that route to see if it works. If you still end up stuck on the saddle issue, you could always rethink things then.

Hmm, don't think that was much help was it!

 

[Esther.D]

Thanks all

cvb - we are going on with the Parelli anyway whatever we decide to do as it is the most promising thing so far
.....and yes the only yard I would send him too would be one that did either Parelli or Monty Roberts methods, but preferably Parelli, and one that we will thoroughly check out in advance. Which creates its own difficulties. It was exactly this worry that has stopped us sending him away before now.

Claire Louise - we are going to see a local lady tomorrow who is a BHS instructor and also has passed level 1 Parelli with her horses. Although she is not a Parelli instructor she is an experienced horsewoman who is also familiar with Parelli. We have been exchanging emails about Pablo and she has had some good ideas. Although she cannot come and help at this stage as she has too much on with her own horses she is willing to be a voice on the end of the phone/email or over a cup of coffee to advise and reassure as needed! She is also used to dealing with wild unhandled ponies straight off the Cumbrian fells and has had cruelty cases in the past. Hopefully this contact will help, I didn't mention it in my post as I hadn't sorted it out with her yet.

anuvb - he wears his saddle almost everytime we work with him, he wears it for everything, walks, feeding, lunging etc etc and has done for two years. He forgets about it...but as soon as you touch it the tension returns. We can't seem to finally break that mental block which is telling him that someone touching the saddle is scary...

chev - thanks for the sympathy, it is hard to keep your motivation when you seem to have reached a brick wall isn't it...

Reading all your posts has been very helpful. It also justifies my indecision as you can't totally agree either Its reassuring to know that you are not all suggesting a single course of action which I have overlooked.


As I said to cvb we are planning to continue the parelli anyway (I said that in my first post...but people seem to have missed it in amongst all my ramblings!) . I will chat it over with Catherine tomorrow and we will do some more parelli with him this weekend and I will keep you posted.

 

[anuvb]

What's he like using the stick/crop thing and the saddle? Do you touch his saddle with the stick? I agree with cvb that you should be building the saddle and pressure on the saddle into the parelli games.

Sounds like you've got a good local support network at least.

 

[Esther.D]

we haven't tried the stick with the saddle as he was not tacked up when we did the 'friendly game' (despite what I said about hism always being saddled...except for that!). I suspect he will hate it, however I thought he would hate the stick on its own and he was better than expected. So it may be worth a try building it into the games as you and cvb suggested...anything is worth a try!

I am hoping life will be a lot easier if we can get some local support, previously we were very much on our own which didnt help. I have only just made contact with Catherine through our local Parelli group (another bonus about Parelli - there is a group near us) but I hope it will make a big difference - it must help our morale at least if nothing else...

 

[Lgd]

Have you tried the Bach Flower Remedies. Could try the specific ones for fear or try Rescue Remedy - it worked really well on Tavia for her separation anxiety at competitions.