NH QoD: Who's the Boss?

Y

Yann

Guest
Interesting real life scenario:

Horse A can move horse B at will in almost all situations
Horse B is wary of horse A, and will avoid getting too close or boxed in by them
Despite this there's the odd situation where Horse A will actually stand their ground.
Horse A and horse B often graze together in the field, but horse B is the one who usually initiates movement and horse A who follows.
In strange or stressful situations horse A will look to horse B for guidance or a lead.
Horse C gives way to horse B in the field. Horse A gives way to horse C in the field.

Discuss? :D
 
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I was always led to believe that herd dynamics are not static and can and do change depending on the situation?
 
True KR. I also think that the horse who shouts loudest, does so because he's insecure in his leadership and constantly has to prove it. Flipo is horse B in our herd of two. Horse A (the arab) constantly herds him about, warns him, etc. Could the truer leader be the one who doesn't feel the need to try so hard, who other horses follow from will rather than being coerced? Or is that just me romanticising the idea that my horse is a higher ranking quiet leader lol?!
 
From watching mine in different group dynamics, silver is probably horse a or c... She stands on her own though and only becomes dominant if others approach her or rascal.

She will only accept a "leader" in the herd who is passive - she will not give respect to an aggressive horse - she will move out the way but not respect them as a leader - so for her horse b would always be the leader.

Interestingly, the longer I have Rascal, the more he is developing into horse b. he never kicks or fights, and whilst silver is often dominant to him.... She takes a lot of comfort from him. In the field there is one pony who chases him aggressively, but most of them don't lay a hoof on him and tend to follow him like a sheep. I always joke that he walks in the field, looks about, and then squeals as if to say "come on then boys lets play".... He walks off and they all follow him! The reason he isn't quite there yet is because he still has tendencies to want to be mothered and have decisions on safety made for him - but this is improving finally!
 
You could see this with Mattie, Ziggy and Tommy before Tommy went away. Tommy was youngest, biggest, and boss in feed-related situations - both others would move away from him. Mattie initiated play sessions, nipping, barging and striking out with forefeet, but gave way to Ziggy and Tommy in every other respect. Ziggy was middle ranking in food, but the one the others followed whenever anything happened or if they were going to move grazing, seek shade etc.

Certainly it's not straightforward.
 
It is so interesting. My herd of three have an obvious heirachy - Rosie, then Moët then major. But Rosie does get a bit lost without her herd, hence the not so keen hacking solo. Moët and major used to swap order for a while but have settled now. Rosie is although dominant is not aggressive, she just gives small signs and horses move, it's more often around food though, when I'm just watching them in the field they never mutual groom though? They like to stand close to each other but I've never witnessed them grooming ever...
 
I have an A B and C.

A is definetly in charge, first for everything and considerably more quick witted than the other two. She will also allow mutual grooming though and look after the others if necessary. i.e. if a strange dog appears in the field and starts chasing B & C, horse A will swiftly chase and challenge the dog to protect herself and the others.

B respects A's space but pushes C out the way although she does share her food and hay with C and protects.

C is just dossie:giggle:
 
You dont have a boss in a herd. Or fixed hierarchy in a herd. Not in the human sense. There are videos and also written descriptions of complex situations. Mostly to do with food. Since in a field that is the principle source of competition.
Both my mares were quite aggressive. Both were prevented from going first to their food and both were injured in the field. So had every reason to be aggressive on the defensive. Yet the staff expected both to be dominant. Because both had once been.
Horse's dont seem to have the intelligence to work out the subtle compromises often attributed to them. That's my view anyway. My share mare was retired and eventually put down following an unexplained fracas in the field. Now my other favourite whom I intended (for her own good) to have a winter off work has been badly kicked.
 
I disagree Skib, horses interact very strongly with one another, just in the same way humans and other animals do. Things form 'patterns' if they are left together over a period of time. There is definite pecking order.

Horses may become 'aggressive' for all sorts of reasons, just like people.

Put an aggressive person in with a mild mannered orderly family. That wont make the aggressive person 'in charge' more likely, it will get manoeuvred out.

It is difficult to judge horses true behaviour in riding schools and on livery yards because the situation is often not natural and there are frequent changes.

My 'A' is not aggressive, just much brighter and more confident than the others. Its natures way of ensuring the best for all.

Its the same at work or in a family for humans. A good boss makes everyone happy.
 
I find it fascinating to watch horses interact, my girls have a fairly rigid hierachy system (although I appreciate that other herds can be far more fluid).

Lead Mare - Puz
then Inca
then next doors' chickens
and Bella is riiiiiiight at the very bottom

Puz dictates where they go and when, the others look to her for reassurance and confidence and move out of her way when asked. Incacan be a bit "gobby" in that she's all talk - when she is trying to boss other horses around she is very much aggressive because she's defensive (has been badly bullied and not allowed to get to food when in a larger herd). Bella is told where to go, when to move, when to stand, when to eat and in no uncertain terms when to get out of the way! She is going through a little phase of not doing a single thing unless she's absolutely sure she has to, more than once I've seen Puz and Inca get tough with her if she hasn't responded to more subtle body language. That said, if anything spooks Inca or Bella they run to Puz, who lets them get as close as they want.
 
A ha! Bits and pieces mine are much the same.

Of thread but when you mention the chickens, its so fascinating how the animals react outside their own species not only from within!

My dog is not sure where she sits pecking order wise, she likes to think she is boss and will try and 'herd' the hens. Chief Hen will go for her wings flapping and dog will scarper with all hens in hot pursuit.

If chief hen squawks warning noises, the dog is out in seconds to back the hen up from possible danger.
 
I wonder if there's a difference between mares and geldings? When there were 3 boys in the field they mutually groomed all round, and I've never seen one of them withhold grooming from another who initiated it.
 
The arab forces Flip to groom him. Its amusing to watch as Flipo always misinterprets the signals as the arab wanting to shift him about, so he flees, only for the arab to give chase, trot round in front and stop him head on.
 
Interesting what a range of different variations on this theme there are, horse social interactions and structures are fascinating :)

A is Tess, B is Rio, C is another mare who often grazes with Rio. I think this little list demonstrates that it's a lot more complicated than moving the feet makes you the leader, or that horse hierarchies, if you want to call them that, always go in straight lines. Most of Tess's dominant behaviour towards Rio takes place when I'm around, which suggests it's mostly about competing for resources eg me and what I provide :) The rest of the time she mostly follows Rio about, and certainly uses her as a bit of a security blanket if she's unsure about anything. Which Rio obviously finds a bit offputting :D In some ways Rio fits the passive leader mould, staying out of trouble and being reliable.

With regard to mutual grooming I think it varies from horse to horse and I'm not sure there's much of a gender bias. I don't often see either of mine mutual grooming other horses, and I've certainly never seen them grooming each other, but they have plenty of alternatives to choose from.
 
People are always surprised my mare is not boss in the field yet she is not picked on either as she will stand up for herself and pairs up with the herd leader.

I noticed when she was lame she was more aggressive so as not to be seen as weak as is often the case.

I agree it changes according to many factors and is so fascinating,
 
The arab forces Flip to groom him. Its amusing to watch as Flipo always misinterprets the signals as the arab wanting to shift him about, so he flees, only for the arab to give chase, trot round in front and stop him head on.

poor flipo. I feel so bad for him getting bullied around.Is he not a fan of grooming?
 
Who is the boss-the one who pays the bills, so me. :wink:

Wth our herd it changes the second a horse is removed or put back into the herd. Yesterday when I called mine she brought the lot, but that doesn't mean she is in charge it just means the others have realised I am a good appearance. She gets overtaken but leaves the group to single me out to come to-usually bringing the friend of the day with her.
I don't feel we will ever really know because we will always look at them through our eyes.
 
I also think it depends how important the issue is to them.

For instance, Tobes is out with two others in our new little field. His very best friend (a TB) is more laid back than Tobes, but I notice Tobes moves if TB puts his ears back.

HOWEVER, the lady whose husband owns the TB gets Tobes in for me because I get back too late from work. Tobes is insistent that he is caught first and out first because he gets in a proper snit if not.

TB allows him to be collected first - even though lady livery is TB's Mum!! This is the only instance that Tobes will double barrel - hay in the field etc. they share and if TB prefers Tobes hay then Tobes is happy to share.

I noticed this with my TB who also had coming in issues - why is this a common pattern with my horses?!!!!

My friends cob mare was the dominant one, but my TB was always by the gate and she would wait because he was insistent about coming in first.
 
Ive often watch a herd of approx 40 little ponies with interest. They all have there little gangs and hang about together. There are a couple of loners to, who are bottom of the pecking order. With all this crap weather Ive been putting hay out for them, and with 1 shout they all come running ( amazing to watch!) You can see very clearly who is the dominant boss ( they are all mares) They get to best dibs. I usually wait until they have all settled into their groups and then put out seperate piles at the back for the stragglers ( bless them!) Otherwise they would liturally get left overs.

Theres also a field of stallions, approx 7 ponies. They are all friendly and live side by side well. However at food time, there is one who will follow me around with the hay not allowing any other horse near me. I have to put his hay down, then all the other piles he runs to also to keep any others away. He settles down eventually to eat, and only then can the others get to eat the other piles. There is also one thats bottom of the pecking order that again has to have his own pile away from the others. He wont fight back and knows his place like the straggler mares in the other field.


Similar set ups can be seen when they come up to drink to, The leaders drink first and the others will stand back and wait until the leaders have walked off.

I could sit for hours watching the herd its so interesting. Generally they live alongside each other happily.
 
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