Negative perception of the teaching profession

[eventerbabe]

This came up in staff room debate today (in relation to the mooted changes in our conditions and pay as part of council cut backs). My parents always had huge respect for our teachers at school and hence my sister and i respected our teachers and wouldn't have dreamed of causing any trouble in class.

However at times i have seen, heard and read about an incredibly negative response to the profession i now work in. My sister (an architect) found herself fighting my corner during the bad weather. Her work mates said that teachers should be forced to go shovel snow on local streets if schools were shut. They also complain about early parents' evenings.

We have recently shifted our parents evenings to run from 5pm-7pm, as opposed to 7pm to 9pm. For staff like myself, a 9pm finish (which often overran to half nine) meant not getting home until half ten and then having to be up and out early doors next day for school. The response on the whole has been positive but some complain that they cannot get out of work (which is totally understandable). I for one am willing to have a pre-arranged meeting with any parent at the school outwith parents night.

I often find that the negative reaction of a pupil to being asked to do something simple (like pick a paper towel they dropped off the floor) relates back to something that has been said at home. "my dad says you teachers are all losers" or "my mum says teachers have no right to tell me what to do".

If you hold a negative view of the teaching profession, why? i am intrigued to know.

 

[Cochise]

It's not quite so bad in NZ, but there is industrial action happening over conditions (impacting on students and starting to frustrate communities) which will continue into the new teaching year (starting on the 1st of February). I'd also be interested to hear people's views.

A friend of mine keeps grumbling about all my "holidays" and that teachers do nothing past 3 o'oclock etc. However, we VERY rarely have days where weather affects our school days.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

My best friend is an English teacher in a Suffolk secondary school. She works like a dog, in sickness and in health, and I know no-one with a work ethic stronger than hers.

I think people's views of teachers as not having to work hard might have been formed twenty or thirty years ago. They certainly wouldn't be formed by anyone who knows how hard a teacher has to work today.

On the first day of term Liz called me to tell me about their staff meeting after school in which all the Government's new ideas (= demands) were explained. Many of them went home in tears. It's been change, change, change for years, and never a thank you.

I don't know of a profession who are less rewarded for their efforts (and the fact that they are not highly regarded in society just exacerbates this). It astonishes me that they can continue to find recruits. In my view teachers should be paid much more for what they do.

 

[eventerbabe]

There are several changes to conditions being mooted here. At the moment, we have a maximum pupil contact time specified. Our 'free periods' are for class preparation and other work (referrals, development work, report writing etc.). They want to abolish this maximum contact time. Supply teachers at the moment are paid based on their position on the pay scale, which in turn relates to their number of years service. They want to put ALL supply teachers regardless of experience on point zero of the pay scale, so right back at the bottom.

The mcrone agreement (the maximum contact time) being abolished annoys me somewhat. I actually have MORE class contact time than the maximum stated because i took on another class who were destined to be left without a science teacher. They had this happen last year (due to staffing issues) and i couldn't see it happen to the good kids again. So i've crossed the line in the sand and gone 80 minutes over my max teaching time. I'm stretched as it is to get prep and paper work done and that is with me working all weekend AND for a couple of hours every evening. I'm not one of these teachers who stops their commitment to the job as soon as the school bell rings at 3.15pm.

Don't even get me started on scotland's new curriculum. Fiona Hyslop AND Mike Russell got that very wrong. CfE should be stopped where it is. Good teachers think outside the box anyway, and the bad ones won't be forced to expand their horizons by CfE anyway...

 

[eventerbabe]

My best friend is an English teacher in a Suffolk secondary school. She works like a dog, in sickness and in health, and I know no-one with a work ethic stronger than hers.

I think people's views of teachers as not having to work hard might have been formed twenty or thirty years ago. They certainly wouldn't be formed by anyone who knows how hard a teacher has to work today.

On the first day of term Liz called me to tell me about their staff meeting after school in which all the Government's new ideas (= demands) were explained. Many of them went home in tears. It's been change, change, change for years, and never a thank you.

I don't know of a profession who are less rewarded for their efforts (and the fact that they are not highly regarded in society just exacerbates this). It astonishes me that they can continue to find recruits. In my view teachers should be paid much more for what they do.

what a refreshing attitude Jane thank heavens for people like you! this week i have been screamed at by no less than 3 pupils, dragged umpteen down to higher authorities for various acts of vandalism, littering and violence and to cap it all after being more than fair with a pupil i have false accusations thrown at me of favouritism. God forbid a child (am talking teenagers here) take responsibility for their own actions! if they can't behave and follow the rules then they know the consequences, but they cannot accept them and look to blame anyone else but themselves for the problems they cause.

 

[notpoodle]

no negative perception in my book! i have friends who teach and did the best part of a PGCE myself so know just how much hard work it is! long hours (people seem to forget the prep that goes into the lessons!), holidays at preset times (and missing out on bargain holidays!), having to be calm and whatnot all day every day (i could not do it!), dealing with tough kids and even tougher parents ... so why begrudge tea=chers a snow day? seriously! a lot of parents should be bl*y grateful their kids have such hardworking and dedicated teachers!

 

[Cochise]

They're trying to avoid wavering the maximum class size, cut back on our 5 periods of non-contact time and make all our professional development time in school breaks. All in an effort to avoid recruiting more teachers. (In New Zealand).

I also work all weekend (especially during major assessment times with three senior classes - year 11, 12 and 13) and have extra-curricular activities which I don't get paid for. I have a debating team who I coach during two lunchtimes and take them to their debates on Mondays after school. I also manage the equestrian team who compete on Saturdays. I don't leave school until 6pm most evenings except Wednesday which is the only day I put aside to see my horses after school.[/QUOTE

 

[Zingy]

Having grown up with my dad teaching for many years, it's certainly not a job I'd want to do. It was ok maybe 20-30 years ago when kids did have some level of respect for teachers, and anyone in authority, but that's long gone for a lot of kids now I feel. Personally I can't think of anything worse than having to control 30 teenage brats who are disruptive, unruly and don't want to learn.

That said, though I wouldn't want that side of the job, the hours are not exactly unreasonable and I really don't understand the complaints about being overworked. People with careers (as opposed to jobs) normally have to work long hours and deal with change, pressure and targets - it's part of what working is for a huge number of us. The only difference is who is instigating the change and the targets - in the private sector it's the company directors, in the public sector it's the government. And whereas I think that governments are bad at wasting money and change things very often for the sake of it, I also don't think that public sector working should be the easy life that so many people seem to think that it should be.

So I guess my perception of teachers depends on their attitude. If they whinge about being overworked and having too much to do, I have very little respect for them to be honest. Those that get on with it and manage to not only control the hooligans they teach but actually manage to teach them something I have the utmost respect for cos I know I could never do it!

 

[Calluna]

I don't have a negative view of the teaching profession, so probably shouldn't post a reply... but here goes anyway!

I think the majority of teachers do an excellent job that I could not hope to replicate. I do not think any of my children are disrespectful at school - if it was an issue I would expect to know about it!! All teenagers will act like an injured party if asked to do a trivial task especially if it compromises their personal view of themselves within their peer group but they have just got to suck it up!

School management however is a different matter. I have lost count of the times I have exclaimed in frustration "this school is run as if every parent has only one child and at least one parent that does not work!"
Also I defy any school to run a truly effective parents evening. Disorganised queueing systems, appointments that never run to time and quite dreadful coffee characterise every single one I have been to. At least most secondary schools now give teachers a photo sheet of pupils so that there is a reasonable chance of the teacher actuallly talking about your child - but that (sadly) is not always a guarantee that they know your child very well, though the further up the school they get the more constructive the comments become I've found.

I have made a point of sending my children to schools with an excellent reputation for getting the most out of their pupils and developing them to their full potential. This also means that their peer groups tend to be supportive and focused and the atmosphere in the school is good. And yes, it is costing me a fortune.

I hear lots of horror stories from friends locally. Our local language college can't keep a language teacher and has no permanent language staff, so children that are interested enough teach themselves, the others founder. Lanuage specialism HA! Equally in science, apparently if you don't get straight in to top set in year 7 (based on year 6 SATS) you can never get reallocated, even if you are out-performing most of the top set. So my friend's son has to basically teach himself because it is top set or a mixed set, no other choice and in the mixed set 95% of the teacher's time is spent on behaviour, not on teaching. Also another friend had her son put in lower tier gcse maths despite him getting 100% in every (lower tier) test - that is not developing the pupil, that is massaging the figures. And I think that is the nub of it. There is too much time spent teaching to the test or making sure that an average is acheived to satisfy the latest fashionable benchmark. So I think the public's frustration is with the system more than with the teachers on the whole.

And of course we are all super jealous of your long holidays - don't underestimate that when you organise a belated teacher day for Christmas shopping purposes on the last day of term - it does really rile people!!

Good teachers who are allowed to teach and do it well are worth their weight in gold. Everyone can remember a truly inspirational teacher. I know I could not do the job. I do not have the patience - those that do it have my admiration.

Oh that turned out to be a bit of an essay - sorry!

 

[Billy]

I'm working as a Learning Support Assistant (bottom of the barrel when it comes to teaching staff!) in a secondary school. Which means I work in the classes with statemented kids (some autistic, some partially sighted, some with physical needs like a kid in a wheelchair) to provide for thier SEN needs.

I have the benefit of the school holidays and the bonus of not needing to doing any lesson prep, because I'm not a teacher. However my salary is pro rata (which means I'm paid an annual salary, but it depends on how many hours I work). Consequently, it wouldn't be enough to live on if I didn't live at home with my folks. I'm not paid much at all and mainly I'd doing it for the experience.

My experience of kids is that some are little s**ts! But actually many are really vulnerable, when you dig a little deeper you can usually see what the problem is.

As for teachers - variable. I'm in a good position, I observe lessons more than participate. Some are excellent and some are terrible, but mostly I see a lot of stressful people walking around looking worried!! Quite frankly the short working day is needed! Being in a classroom for an hour, is more exhausting that working in an office for two hours or more! I have worked in offices, on busy switchboards, in shops during the Christmas period and at a council call centre taking repair and maintenance calls, and nothing compares to trying to control a noisy classroom!

It's made me not really want to teach! Poor sods, not an easy job at all.

:happy:

 

[Cochise]

I'm working as a Learning Support Assistant (bottom of the barrel when it comes to teaching staff!) in a secondary school. Which means I work in the classes with statemented kids (some autistic, some partially sighted, some with physical needs like a kid in a wheelchair) to provide for thier SEN needs.

I teach a literacy development class and you guys are absolute saints!!! I need one of those bow down smilies here!

 

[candyflosspot]

i also don't have a negative opinion of teachers and i would not have dared to give any of my teachers any backchat .. i would have had an ear bashing off my parents thats for sure.
Children as a whole (the majority anyway) have little respect for their parents these days.Never mind anyone else ..for example i mean yesterday whilst on the tram to work there was a mother with 3 children with her, one in a push chair & 2 that looked like they were 8/10 on the way to school when an old lady got on who clearly need a seat as she was wobbly on her feet. Not ONE of those kids was asked to stand up & let the old lady sit down.

Would have been a different story with me & my mum.. mums motto respect your elders. They fought the war for you.

sorry for going off in a different direction, i just wanted to highlight the no respect for anyone bit.

I agree with Jane's statement about teachers having little reward for the job they do. I certainly couldn't do it..

 

[Joyscarer]

Both my grandparents and my father-in-law were teachers. My best friend was a dance teacher and a have a umber of aquantainces that are teachers. Needless to say I always had the utmost respect for all my elders, not just teachers, whether they were right or wrong.

Now of course the focus is on human rights and whilst children are little humans, they are children who need to know that they should be guided by adults. That's where things tend to fall down now and children are all to aware of the power they can hold with little focus being place on their responsabilities.

I think the perception of techers is that they just do a very short working day (no thoughts that there is lesson prep, marking, red tape paperwork etc) and have lots of long holidays. There is also the old adage that those who can do, those who can't, teach (probably got my punctuation completely wrong there!).

Yes I do think that whilst this thread has had some good responses all showing support for teachers the perception of teachers continues to generally worsen the lower down the social ladder you go. Yes I appreciate this may be very stereotypical and unfair but I stand by my opinions based on my own experience.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

Another thing I think has changed the way people see teachers and schools is the frequency of families now where there is either one parent, or where both parents work.

Understandably, the "child care" aspect of school is very important for people in this situation. The school holidays can be a nightmare. But it's easy for them to forget that teachers are also professionals working at a difficult job, not people who look after their children while they are at work. Teachers need professional development (days when they are at school and the children are not) just as other professionals do, and since teachers' working hours are school hours (plus all the prep and marking and duty time as others have said), it is no more "fair" to ask teachers to stay late/work early to suit parents than it is "fair" to ask working parents to come in during school hours to discuss their children.

Having said that, I do agree that schools could be more thoughtful about this. For example, my friend's son is very good at Maths and has been asked to join an inter-school extra maths club. But it happens at another school - at 1pm on a Wednesday, and one of his parents would need to come and get him, drive him there, wait for the club to be over and then return him to school. Not really feasible for a working parent...

 

[eventerbabe]

I'm working as a Learning Support Assistant (bottom of the barrel when it comes to teaching staff!) in a secondary school. Which means I work in the classes with statemented kids (some autistic, some partially sighted, some with physical needs like a kid in a wheelchair) to provide for thier SEN needs.

you are most definately not bottom of the barrel! i have a class where my support assistants are absolutely key and do an amazing job supporting the autistic and ADHD kids.

We actually stopped our after school science club because we were being used as a baby sitting service. We were always thrilled to see those who WANTED to do science, but week in week out we'd have transient members who weren't interested and when asked why they'd come "oh, mum said she couldn't get here til 4pm so i had to come here for you to watch me".

Joyscarer, think you hit the nail on the head there. "i know my rights" is an all too familiar phrase banded about by the pupils. But they have little grasp of their responsibilities. If they shout, swear and are physically violent towards myself or my colleagues then i'm sorry but rights go out the window! what about my rights to do my job in a non-threatening environment? I guess i see the worst of it as we are (if you believe the unofficial league tables) the worst school in our LA with a very polarised intake. We are also fighting a generation of parents who had a negative experience with education and who bring this with them to parents night and have imparted it on their kids.

 

[Joyscarer]

Another thing I think has changed the way people see teachers and schools is the frequency of families now where there is either one parent, or where both parents work.

I started to type about this in my post and then deleted it!

The problem with both, or the only parent working is that children to not get raised by their families. Although I'm not a childcare professional I know that when I have my daughter's friends come over that I do not take the opportunies I would with my own daughter when questions arise to discus them and help form their minds. Morality and judgement isn't the job of teachers or healthcare professionals in my view and in the absense of parents who is doing this, the most important part in raising children, this is leaving a gaping whole in a childs education.

How many times do we hear the phrases, 'I blame the parents' or 'Where were the parents?'. Well the answer is they were at work and there is little you can do in the space of a couple of hours you do see your kids when you are trying to get them feed and do a million and one other jobs that need doing at home. Sad and so misguided of numerous government to try to encourgae both parents into full time work through necessity. Choice yes, but forcing the issue has seen a deterioration in kids.

 

[LauraGeeGee]

Now of course the focus is on human rights and whilst children are little humans, they are children who need to know that they should be guided by adults. That's where things tend to fall down now and children are all to aware of the power they can hold with little focus being place on their responsabilities.

I think the perception of techers is that they just do a very short working day (no thoughts that there is lesson prep, marking, red tape paperwork etc) and have lots of long holidays. There is also the old adage that those who can do, those who can't, teach (probably got my punctuation completely wrong there!).

Yes I do think that whilst this thread has had some good responses all showing support for teachers the perception of teachers continues to generally worsen the lower down the social ladder you go. Yes I appreciate this may be very stereotypical and unfair but I stand by my opinions based on my own experience.

A lot of it is down to the media too. Us train drivers are also slated by the press and the general public. They think all we do is sit about all day and go out on strike on a whim! Also our salaries, though good, are always over inflated in the media. So are our "short" working hours/days. They is no recognition of what we do actually do as well as the knowledge and skill we have to do our job efficiently and safely.

My cousin is a teacher and my old next door neighbour was too. She used to get home long after school had finished and would be going in during the holidays to prepare for the next terms. There is the assumption that they have short working days and long holidays. People do need to get their facts straight!

I have an awful lot of respect for teachers.

 

[Elly Koopman]

Kids are sh*ts now - no respect for anything or anyone.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't always the case and there are always good kids, but unfortunately increasingly the bad outweighs the good to the point you become suspicious of the good ones

Where I work we have schools come away to us for residential trips and the difference between groups and the way they are managed is cavenous. We never have problems with SEN, most youth groups, small groups of 'select' students and hate to say it - private schools. But this is because there are the ratio of adults available so less kids to adults and it continues at the school. There is a mutual respect between everyone, they are quickly pulled up if necessary and are equally quickly praised as well.

The groups of state schools that are understaffed, the adults that do come clearly are dreading it (as in have brought 6l of vodka for a 2 night stay :frown and the kids play up to it because there just isn't the manpower to cope with them. And it's all to do with rarely cover, costs, time out etc. the schools just cannot afford for the teachers to be away from school, so they come away at weekends which teachers rightly don't want to do.

Some schools have cottoned onto NQT's which also helps, and interestingly they seem to cope with the students better..

 

[laceyfreckle]

Hmm, I'm split.

I agree with Joyscarer that some of the problem is parents are expected to work full time (both parents) as well as be the main carer for their children. There is a immense pressure on parents to work full time and still be wondermum or wonderdad.

Although teachers do do a lot of prep and marking outside school hours a lot of working parents also finish work at say 5.30 then have to get home, cook dinner, listen to their children read and THEN help them with homework or anything else schools have asked to bring in with normally short notice. I imagine most working parents don't finish and sit down til near 8pm every night and most go to work at around 8am.

I have met some outstanding teachers, ones that really are interested in teaching and do their best as well as ENJOY it. I have also though met some who are quick to get out of the door after school, do the very bare minimum, don't diffrentiate work and hate their job. Too many also seem to HATE children (why work with children if you don't like them??)

I agree that a lot of children have no manners or respect but there are still a lot of children that do. A lot of children lose respect for others when they are not treated with respect.

I don't want this to seem like I'm bashing teachers though, I'm not...Some, in fact most are excellent! But like a lot of proffessions not everyone is there for the right reasons.

On another note we find early parents evenings difficult due to work and arranging childcare (It's hard to get a babysitter before 7pm!) although I was horrified to be phoned up by my 4yr olds teacher to say she wouldn't be getting a parents evening appointment as she didn't have any problems and the teacher didn't have a lot of time .......actually after having two children at school that struggled academically I wanted a parents evening where they said everything was good! I complained and got a appointment in the end but it did bother me that the teacher couldn't be bothered to do a parents evening review with us so she could go 10 minutes earlier.