Liverpool cream - what do I need to know?

Its not your fault. Contrasna has a history of having a pop at me.

Sorry I mistakenly said it was Jane I was quoting. I should have checked my post!
 
I didn't expect an apology although I'd hoped for it.

How can you not see you made a mistake?

As I've tried hard to explain, my post wasn't aimed at you Contrasna. I'd quoted Someone at the start of my response so I couldn't have been more clear.

It wasn't written to incite trouble from you and certainly not worthy of such an extremely acerbic response and didn't receive one from candyflosspot or Jane.

I think its safest to add me to your blocked list as you've seen fit to see an issue where there was none and then massively overreact as a result. I'll continue to tread on eggshells where you're posting too but in future, try to remember that if I quote another member in my post, I'm responding to that and not you!
 
Toby had three sarcoids when I bought him.

Personally - ducks head - I had no intention of using the highly invasive and incredibly painful and expensive Knottenbelt procedure.

Over a course of a year, using Sarc Ex and allowing my horse to build up his immune system with Immuplus as well, he is sarcoid free and has been for over a year.

In my opinion, and experience, sarcoids are caused by a low immune system and generally occur in horses that have moved around a lot and are stressed. Toby had several owners in the year before I bought him, and having tracked his owner down who had him from a yearling, he certainly wasn't born with them, but between years three and four - when I bought him, he had several.

Once you have the immune system kicking in, and a less stressful environment, I believe the sarcoids will go.

Clearly you will do what you think best, and if you think the Dr Knottenbelt way is the best option, that is what you will do, but you have only had him a few weeks, and I personally would let the dust settle before starting on any course of treatment, and certainly try a less invasive and painful way first. After all, he has lived with them for some time clearly and is in no pain with them.

Vets are very much like the rest of us. My own vet, who I have a massive amount of respect for, and who specialises only in horses and spent some time in New Zealand where they have nowhere near the amount of disposable cash to kick around, said that his girlfriend put their horse on a '
herbal diet' - and it sorted the sarcoids.

Many roads to Rome I guess. Just depends which one you choose and how quickly you wish to get there and by which means.
 
I have emailed the vet and asked if there a viable and trusted alternative (even if it takes a longer time etc) or, in her heart of hearts, is this the best option. If she says she believes its the best option, Ill run with it. I trust in medical science and peer reviewed results.
I couldnt live with myself if in 5 years times he is riddled with tumours and I could have avoided it. We all make our own choices and have to live with them, but now that I know theres an issue, I feel compelled to go with the best medical advice I have. If something else has to give to pay the bill, then so be it.
Appreciate your thoughts and input as ever :biggrin:
 
If he is riddled with tumours (as you put it) that won't be the last - sarcoids are not contagious and if he has one or seven, doesn't necessarily mean that treating one or seven with the Liverpool cream will mean that he never gets another.

In my honest opinion, sarcoids are natures way of saying 'all is not well' - and that is not necessarily requiring an extremely invasive and painful cancer treatment. If I was you, I would pop onto Horse and Hound forum - a lot of people on there are very much for the 'medical point of view' and I think you may get a more rounded point of view.
 
There are several types of sarcoid and from resounding evidence it is perfectly possible and safe to use alternative or less invasive treatments on at least some of them, and if I felt these were of that type, I would be very open to investigating. Its not like Im not open to 'alternative' methods of doing things. But the vet was very clear in saying that the one on his face is very likely to have a 'root' and a strong possiblity of malignancy. When a world leading expert says it could turn nasty you have to beleive them.

I would say that stress induced (or exacerbated) is highly likely, as I beleive many, both benign and malignant, tumours are, and we can therefore reduce the likelihood of them reoccuring. The typical time for them appearing is 3 - 4 years too.

There is strong evidence that sarcoids are 'contagious' if cells are transmitted directly, or via flies, to a wound or break in the skin. There were real concerns about the fact that he had a sarcoid on his scrotum so close to the castration site. This transfer is part of the reason why horses who already have them are more likely to get more.

SJP - presumably from your comments, you were advised to have them treated with the liverpool cream. Did they say there was a strong chance of them becoming malignant, and if they had, would this have affected you choice? Just interested on your perspective.

Im not sure where 'incredibly painful' treatment came from? My understanding is in the last couple of treatments it can become sore as can any similar 'burning off' type treatments such as for verruccas etc. I beleive the damaged cells on the surface are destroyed, allowing for healthy tissue to grow up from below.

Ive had a look on H&H a few times but find the threads on there so long and with so many short comments that theyre really hard to follow! Not knowing anyone also makes it hard to know who to ignore!
 
I think you're absolutely right to follow the vet's advice, Anna. Vets do know what they're talking about; I've had two lots of advice recently - one was poor old Cammy, and the vet said 'nothing to do except pts, today not tomorrow' and one was sarcoids, when it was 'try the harmless cream first, don't rush into the Liverpool cream' - and both were right.

The trouble with sarcoids is that there are so many different kinds and they're so unpredictable anyway that even vets can't be sure. But they do know a lot more than most of us. I know you know all this, but it seemed worth saying anyway.

He's a lucky horse to have found you. Hope the treatment goes well.
 
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