Lets have a more 'serious' discussion.

[eventerbabe]

When i started lessons with my dressage RI, we never ever mentioned the words outline. Our goal was to improve toby's responsiveness off the leg and get him working through from behind, via lots of transitions, half halts and lateral work. Toby used to be horrendously heavy in the hand and very on his forehand. He's now a lovely horse to ride, as he's working and using himself correctly, he's much fitter and correctly muscled and the front end came along once we'd got the engine working.

I went to a superb demo by Albert Von Schie a few months back and outline was not mentioned, it was simply about the horse moving forwards in a relaxed movement and not rushing them, only asking for a movement or transition when the horse was relaxed and responsive.

My youngster goes along overbent at times, he's still finding his feet so to speak. The engine is powering through, but he's not sure what to do with the front end. I don't fuss and aim for a long and low frame at this stage.

 

[laceyfreckle]

ok, well currently Harvey needs to work long and low but pushing himself forward from behind. In doing this I hope he will start to use the right muscles and strengthen across his back which will then enable us to start 'outline' work. To me outline is all about what the back end is doing, and that it is contained by the front end whether that is long and low (like we try to aim for most of the time at the moment) or more 'rounded'. In Harvey in particular because he finds it hard to carry himself due to muscle wastage it is extremely noticeable how much easier he finds his work (and how much more expressive and happier his way of going) when he works in a slightly rounded shape/outline.

I personally can ride him all day in a 'false outline' as someone somewhere has taught him a 'twinkle' on the inside rein held slightly low and put your nose in.....that for me does nothing and is a habit I'm not keen on him having.

Piccolo will be brought on to work long and low as I do believe that is the best way for all horses to learn to carry themselves. Eventually she will be worked with loosish side reins so she has a contact to work into. this will probably eventually make a more rounded shape but my point for it is to make her work easier for her and to get her propelling herself properly from behind. I hope she will also drive eventually and i also 'think' (don't actually know!) that it would make it easier for her to pull if she can carry herself properly.

Incidentaly have you seen those dressage sheets where riders have to 'give away the rein' to show the horse in in true self carriage/balance...it is amazing sometimes how many horses fall on the forehand (including mine at the moment) because it is being 'held up' by its rider.

 

[Cochise]

I'm absolutely atrocious. I only school so that we do well at shows.

OK, so overall, I do it to improve my horse's outline and way of going, I enjoy playing with his paces and finding all the 'go and whoah' buttons. I'm also enjoying learning a new way of schooling for western after years of English.

But to be completely honest, I mostly school because I LOVE getting out to shows, and so does Cheeky. If we're to stand a fighting chance, he needs to be well balanced, muscled and supple which schooling provides.

Otherwise, I'd just be out there hacking around and any 'schooling' would be to ensure he's sensible, sane and a happy, trustworthy horse to ride in a variety of terrain and situations (which he is anyway!).

 

[SavingGrace]

I school my horse so that she can learn to use herself effectively under saddle and we can learn to work together as a team I also take this approach when I am hacking Holly out or even just working around the yard with her under saddle as I feel for her future as a competition horse and general allrounder it is beneficial to her health in both body and mind I mainly do a combination of stretching long and low and bringing her more up into an outline with a very light contact.

 

[kathyt1]

What i've noticed is that when a horse I am riding is in an outline, he is straight, balanced, light and generally just a pleasure to ride. That's the feeling I want - that lightness and balance between the two of us - the outline isn't the end goal it's just the shape the horse makes when he's working over his back, tracking up, carrying himself (and me) and I only get it when I'm taking responsibility for MY balance, light with aids, not interfering with the horse's way of going, allowing him through my seat.

N

This is spot on! One of the best descriptions I have heard of what we should be looking for and how it is the RIDER's position and abilility that allows the horse to move well. BRILLIANT POST!

 

[popularfurball]

I hate horses being "ridden on the bit" or being "ridden in an outline".

Its a serious bug bear of mine. People always comment how when I ride Silver, she never works on the bit, yet she is "really easy to get on the bit" - which to me suggests bad riding on my part. Yes, perhaps - Im open to that, Im not flawless. But in truth she doesnt "work on the bit" - she hangs her head pretty, and it is much harder to get her to extend and collect her paces to bring her hind quaters under and engage them - in fact its hard to get her to work long and low full stop let alone engaging anything or looking pretty!!

I would rather see a horse working hard and it being messy, than a horse looking pretty and not working hard. People confuse the two things. For example draw reins. No purpose imo, again ranting, but if they are working through from back to front then they will soften and naturally work this way, rather than being hauled into this position.

This is Silver, who goes on the bit so easily. To me this is not a "horse on the bit" - In fact I think it looks awful. She just has her nose tucked in. And hey, I ride her in a Wilkie - does that make me hypocritical? Thats make for kiddies to pull their ponies head it! No, I ride in it like a snaffle now I know what purpose the bit serves properly set up.

I have to say I think this perhaps shows it better.

A horse "on the bit"

A horse working (I know she isnt tracking up truly, nor working REALLY hard - but for her she was - she is very hollow and only briefly relaxes through her back like this - she softens very pronoucedly - most notabley in the reverting back to hollow and rigid state).

 

[Esther.D]

Ah but you see only the last pic actually shows a horse in an outline or on the bit. The top one shows a pony tucking her nose in as you say, the second shows a horse behind the bit, only the third shows a horse on the bit and working properly, so I would agree with you, but wouldn't say either of the two photos above that show a horse on the bit at all.

The thing to remember, which I think gets forgotten is that at different schooling levels a horse should have a different outline, a green horse really should have a long and low outline, you are aiming for straightness, relaxation and rhythm rather than a grand prix horse outline......

 

[popularfurball]

Ah no - I wasnt saying they were - I completly disagree with saying they are on the bit - that is my bug bear - hence the use of " " either side!

People don't understand why I would rather Silver has a long neck and nose towards the floor, the suggestions are that I don't ride her properly as she "goes on the bit so easily" - however in reality she doesnt, she can't collect to save her life, she cant extend either, she has forwards impulsion, but no upwards impulsion - so despite it "looking pretty" she isnt on the bit.

The same with the second picture - She is not on the bit she "looks pretty" - but again, when I was riding her in that bottom picture, I was critiqued on not fiddling with the reins because if you fiddle "she will go on the bit" - looking like the second picture with a hollow back. I chose to ride her on loose reins, work her forwards, soft in the mouth and then encourage her to collect the impulsion so we had bounce more than speed.

It meant it looked messy - she will prace about for ages looking like the second picture, but if you work her properly she looks like this mostly

And often like this when you ask her too do something a little more tricky

But when she chills out a bit she will relax, but finds it difficult to maintain it as she doesn't have the fitness nor muscles to sustain working through from behind.

You can see the difference in the strides, I wasnt asking for elongation but she has short stuffy strides when she is tense and hollow through her back. I wasn't "rein fiddling" and I wasn't "pulling her in" - I was making her think about what she was doing with her legs and her feet - circles, serpentines, walk-trot transitions, figure of eights etc.

 

[doorstopper]

I think I'm being taught well, because at my RS, the 'outline' is only a byproduct of bl**dy hard work! In fact, I often find it comes after a good jumping session when my horse has been really using his back end properly.

 

[Esther.D]

Sorry popularfurball, I agree with you, what I meant was that although that is what people call 'on the bit' they are in fact wrong. I was answering too quickly. You can tell what you were doing by the pics - if you were fiddling with the bit etc you wouldn't have got the relaxation and long low working in the last pic, you would have got a tense false outline. She is lovely by the way, and really reminds me of my Rupert (my NF who is out on loan at the moment) who sounds just the same too.

 

[kathyt1]

The last picture is the best. I do think she has potential.

 

[popularfurball]

She would have brilliant potential for flatwork, and although she is a cat leaper, I think she would with the correct handling and rider, have all round potential as she is so careful with her feet - although this is sometimes detrimental.

She is gorgeous - this was the first and last time I rode her - I wish I had had the money to buy her as well as Silver - but I knew she wasnt the right horse - I couldn't cope with her flightyness in hand - she is very very spooky - and it would take a lot of work, and with working full time and shifts I am often rushing which upsets her.

In the school she is responsive and soft mouthed, and less spooky - out hacking she is less sane. She really enjoys school work, but trailed her off hock slightly, and found canter transitions and work without stirrups very difficult - she doesn't like you "sitting deep" - she would canter if you went into light seat and asked, but not if you sat - she would hollow and run.

Back to topic... I should probably leave this thread hahaha - Its one of my pet rants - it REALLY cheeses me off - Especially when people infer that Im a rubbish rider because my horse "is not on the bit" - I'm far from perfect, but I would rather they were thinking, concentrating, working and messy, than bored and looking pretty.

Its like my dislike for unneccessary tack "because someone else is using it". And my rant about surgeons being too quick to want to operate without trying other routes first. And corticosteroids. And some other physio methods. Lawlz.

Not that i'm a grumpy old bag or anything