Is NH turning us soft?

[capalldubh]

It's nothing to do with soft. It's everything to do with effective.

The horse wants to know exactly what to do. They don't want to be overfaced, stressed or confused. They'd like to have a nice time.

The owner wants a horse that behaves the way they want their horse to behave. Some owners also want a horse that responds to them in a way that suggests liking or affection, some owners also want to see evidence that their horse is enjoying what they're doing.

How you achieve these things is - slightly - irrelevant. Whether you achieve them is the important thing.

I would suspect from a horse's point of view, an effective clicker trainer would be lovely. An effective NH person would be better than an ineffective clicker trainer. An effective traditional person would be better than an ineffective NH person. None of the effective ones are by definition soft or hard, they're just effective.

 

[SO1]

In an ideal world a horse (or human) would enjoy their work and then have plenty of free time in the company of like minded friends to relax and unwind.

Unfortunately this is not the case for many - a lot of people hate their work but do it because of the reward of being paid - but imagine what it would be like if you only went to work because you were punished if you did not and even your free time was not really free in that you had to spend a lot of it in your house on your own with nothing much to do other than watch your neighbours.

I think it is far better if I can reward my horse for positive behaviour to encourage him to behave in the way I would like him to behave than punish for negative behavior especially by smacking!

I don't subscribe to any one method - I pick and choose the ones I like the sound of. I can't say I have never smacked my pony but it is rare as if he does not behave how I want him to it is probably my fault for not being clear about what is required and he should not be punished for my ineptitude,

Being soft and practising NH are not necessarily the same thing. Your horse cannot speak and tell you if something is wrong and that is the difference between your horse and your child. Most people would not want their horse to suffer pain and pain maybe a reason why a horse will behaviour badly so perhaps that is why people are keen to eliminate that as a cause first.

I think we ask less of our dogs and cats and perhaps that is why we don't get so hung up on their behaviour. A dogs life is pretty straightforward, eat, sleep, walkies most of which are pleasurable for the dog - you are probably not asking your dog to do anything very complicated so less chance of a misunderstanding.

 

[Gem at heart]

You know how you can tell whether your husband or your dog loves you best?

Lock them both in the boot of your car for an hour and then see which one is still pleased to see you

Ha ha love it.

I have found myself using phases for the dog, the kids & my OH.

The dog usually responds from phase 1/2, A look/body language or a command. (He is eager to please & knows where din dins comes from)

The kiddies, well, phase 3 or 4 especially during the hols which would be; Final chance you have been warned, then, ok go without (treats for example) & carry it out.

OH, anything from phase 1 or 4 but i won't go into that one!

Has nh made me soft? Yes sometimes i think so, it has it's huge benefits especially for those who really have NO CLUE what a horse is trying to say to them. I have found myself over thinking things i.e what they are thinking & feeling constantly & have pandered to them a little but they are not stupid infact they are capable of taking the **** of your soft ways if you pander too much.

Well thats what i think anyway. Back to you experts.

 

[leah&lydia]

imho, NH isnt soft, if it wasnt then my horse wouldnt move away when i walk towards here head, shed just stand there.
To me a dog is a dog. A teenager is a teenager (some of us actually do have manners funnily enough!!). A horse is a horse. One method cant work for all of them. You hav to adapt to whats the most effective & how your horse/dog/child etc reacts to it.
'leadership is the art of gettin someone to do something cos they want to not cos they have to'. This is my 2nd fav quote. To me smackin the horse to stand still gains no respect just forces them to do it. Thats my opinion as a horsewomen. Im not sayin im a paranoid over emotional women & dont smack my horses, if i want them to move i ask them, then i tell them, if i have to smack them or kick out etc at them then i will do so its not gona hurt um! Ill gain respect from that.
I feel some people get to over emotional about horses, im not sayin i dont care cos i bloody well do, but some people worry to much as i can honestly say i do sometimes (were only human!) for example my mare has lost a bit of weight, ive bin praying its nothin serious, which she seems 2 be fine. But my horses are seen once aday to be fed & maybe messed about with, they like just to be left to be horses thats y there so darn chilled all the time. Whats the point of worryin so much? It just makes us look like predators
I hope ive made some sense & someone might bother to read this!
L&L xx

 

[mayoguinness]

I know a lot more people who have the same NH attitude to their dogs in a "dog whisperer" way, and give their kids much more freedom for fear of restricting their "rights"

QUOTE]

That's crazy about people thinking they're treating there dogs more naturally by giving them more freedom. Dogs are at they're safest and happiest when in a controlled pack environment. Ceaser Millan who does the tv show 'The dog whisperer' says dogs need, excersise, disaplin then affection in that order and most of the excersise should be 'pack walks', where the dog walks calmly at your heel.

 

[laceyfreckle]

You know how you can tell whether your husband or your dog loves you best?

Lock them both in the boot of your car for an hour and then see which one is still pleased to see you

Very good I KNOW my dog loves me moew but I also know my hubby would get rid of the 'rival' in a instant should he be allowed. (I have had the dog longer and hubby is more likely to go )

In answer to OP well I don't know if NH has anything to do with it but yes I AM softer, well not softer exactly but more likely to look into reasons for behaviour. For example Harvey has recently been 'off' he has now been given the all clear but I have been left with a few 'behavioural' problems. Ok, he's a smart cookie and has figured that if he 'pretends' something hurts it gets you the day off

fore example walking back at the mounting block, I thought saddle needs checking, saddle checked all ok. Then I thought muscle problem? Physio comes out all fine, then I think.....little *od just thinks he can walk back and go back to his haynet...result on his part....vey well done for training ME.

Tell him to stand, demand he stands...guess what...not so much of a problem.

I'm pleased that I did look into other reasons as there may have been one but I also think that yes people do micromanage sometimes and sometimes the best way is the non-faffing way.

Clear boundaries are a must no matter whether you are NH or not and IMO phase 4 in NH can actually be as hard as a smack. I think the important thing is when wrong things are made uncomfortable, when right things are easy.

My dad's saying...."Most men will do anything for an easy life" I think that translates well to people and horses in general lol.

My dog was trained as a gundog and incidentally his training was at times hard on him (reprimand for lack of obedience normally short sharp shake of the ruff of the neck)...why, well In real life forget to stop the instant you hear a whistle or sign and you could end up with a bullet in you. Even, now as a old dog (now a pet) he is very obedient ...... and he still likes me too

 

[Yann]

It's nothing to do with soft. It's everything to do with effective.

Amen to that. I think the OP has misunderstood what it's about.

Soft as in weak and ineffective, working in softness with the horse is a different thing altogether

 

[FlashFargo]

because a horse is a horse not a child not a dog or whatever.
every animal is different, reacts differently to things etc.
we are on complete opposite ends of the scale, were predators and horses are prey animals, there brains don't work like ours.

 

[annareeves0]

because a horse is a horse not a child not a dog or whatever

i acutally think when it comes down to it, we are all not dissimilar - we are all looking for our place in the pack/herd/family/society and all feel safer and happier when we know what the rules are, we know whats expected and when everyone tries to get along. We all want to know who the leader is and for them to be fair and consistant, we all need to have a role and to feel useful. To quote Cesar Milan 'exercise, discipline then affection' and Pat Parelli 'love, language and leadership' - not very far apart are they?

i think one of the reasons i struggled so much in the early days is necause i didnt want to be a leader - I do all that at home/work - I wanted to chill in my leisure time - unfortunately i picked the wrong hobby!

I think affectionate, considerate, supportive and sensitive are all being considered 'soft'. To me soft is letting them do what they want regardless and not setting any boundaries or meaningful consequences.

 

[whatever]

Putting NH aside, I think we have so much more knowledge, (and horse products), and access to knowledge

No, not more knowledge, more information. Knowledge is the ability to take information and use it to achieve the desired outcome.

True horseman have knowledge. They know when a horse needs a soothing word or when a sharp reprimand is required.

Too many people these days have information overload without having developed the knowledge to use it. This infomation overload is then passed on to the horse who has even less ability to use it effectively. Result = confused horse.

 

[mayoguinness]

i acutally think when it comes down to it, we are all not dissimilar - we are all looking for our place in the pack/herd/family/society and all feel safer and happier when we know what the rules are, we know whats expected and when everyone tries to get along. We all want to know who the leader is and for them to be fair and consistant, we all need to have a role and to feel useful. To quote Cesar Milan 'exercise, discipline then affection' and Pat Parelli 'love, language and leadership' - not very far apart are they?

i think one of the reasons i struggled so much in the early days is necause i didnt want to be a leader - I do all that at home/work - I wanted to chill in my leisure time - unfortunately i picked the wrong hobby!

I think affectionate, considerate, supportive and sensitive are all being considered 'soft'. To me soft is letting them do what they want regardless and not setting any boundaries or meaningful consequences.

I agree, the nature is different, the cues and responses and reactions may be different, but the energy, whether dog, human or horse should be the same. We all really communicate on the level of energy, through words or body language. If our energy is strong, confident yet understanding and patient good results are far morel ikely whatever the speicies. Safety and good leadership is a universal wish.

 

[mu0ljk]

No, not more knowledge, more information. Knowledge is the ability to take information and use it to achieve the desired outcome.

True horseman have knowledge. They know when a horse needs a soothing word or when a sharp reprimand is required.

Too many people these days have information overload without having developed the knowledge to use it. This infomation overload is then passed on to the horse who has even less ability to use it effectively. Result = confused horse.

Now that's the most sensible thing I've heard for a while. I am definately with you on that one.

 

[Bessy]

I know a lot more people who have the same NH attitude to their dogs in a "dog whisperer" way, and give their "kids" much more freedom for fear of restricting their "rights"

QUOTE]

That's crazy about people thinking they're treating there dogs more naturally by giving them more freedom. Dogs are at they're safest and happiest when in a controlled pack environment. Ceaser Millan who does the tv show 'The dog whisperer' says dogs need, excersise, disaplin then affection in that order and most of the excersise should be 'pack walks', where the dog walks calmly at your heel.

I didn't say give their dogs more freedom - I said thier kids.

 

[Chilli]

NH has never been soft and still isn't today but the people drawn to it and the reasons for their interest is very different today.

If your talking North American inspired NH it used be succesful professional Cowboys looking at a different way which was supposed to be better and the demos usually involved finding the worst horse possible so they could watch the clinician fail.

Today it's mostly about amateurs with problems and the demo’s have a different agenda.

 

[puzzles]

It's nothing to do with soft. It's everything to do with effective.

The horse wants to know exactly what to do. They don't want to be overfaced, stressed or confused. They'd like to have a nice time.

The owner wants a horse that behaves the way they want their horse to behave. Some owners also want a horse that responds to them in a way that suggests liking or affection, some owners also want to see evidence that their horse is enjoying what they're doing.

How you achieve these things is - slightly - irrelevant. Whether you achieve them is the important thing.

I would suspect from a horse's point of view, an effective clicker trainer would be lovely. An effective NH person would be better than an ineffective clicker trainer. An effective traditional person would be better than an ineffective NH person. None of the effective ones are by definition soft or hard, they're just effective.

What a fantastic point!

Perhaps people prefer "harder, harsher" methods because they feel they don't deserve an easier, more pleasant route? Do people feel threatened by NH or feel that they don't want to be proved wrong by a method that could invalidate their secure, well known and much-used method? NH works because horses underrstand it! There is less conflict because the journey is in the horse's own language and he is treated fairly, as a horse, with flexible, acceptable methods. In my eyes, NH methods say "yup, you behaved like that and that's not what I want but it's ok. now let's try this way, I think you'll find it easier. Follow me, I'll show you the way ... " - Sounds like a religion, doesn't it! Nh tries to make learning/achievement easier for the horse, whereas traditional methods seem tp up the pressure when conflict arises, encouraging the horse so submit to the rider who takes a more dominating role ... these are all debatable points of course, just my opinion!, so by all means strongly object to it! It is interesting how most people, whoever they are and whatever they stand for in life, tend to want upmost control, which of course is impossible. Sometiems it's better just to stand back and let things run their course and sort themselves out in their own time, without getting over-involved and over-complicating the situation further.

x

 

[levi1739]

I don't know when it started but Bill Dorrance followers use the term "feel and release" rather than "pressure and release".

"Feel and Release" sounds so much nicer but that changes nothing.

Man I'm glad horses don't need words,


Keep on, keepin on

Jack

 

[puzzles]

I don't know when it started but Bill Dorrance followers use the term "feel and release" rather than "pressure and release".

"Feel and Release" sounds so much nicer but that changes nothing.

Man I'm glad horses don't need words,


Keep on, keepin on

Jack

Excellent point - that's how I feel about people saying they "only tapped" their horse as opposed to saying that they hit them, due to the connotations involved - however, if one uses the term "feel" then they may alter their actions to be softer, more percptive and quicker to release when their horse responds, even subconsciously.

x

 

[Bling]

It might not turn us softer, but it DOES allow those of us who are already a bit soft to be more effective -- ("Does he FEEL that?" instead of "Make that rope sting!")-- Words do make a difference with us humans, don't they? But even within NH some of us are firmer than others. The best trainers have the widest abilities of gentleness and firmness.

 

[Hoof-Prints]

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deleted

sorry i keep changing my mind on the debate