Is he a bit off/lame behind? Vid

[laceyfreckle]

I wasn't sure whether to put this on here or not.

Recently Harvey looks a bit short behind then normal and has developed a 'better' rein again (his left rein is his worse rein, where as it was his better rein). He can feel a bit 'stuffy' in trot recently but didn't know how much of that was us both not having a awful lot of intent in our schooling recently.

I'm quite aware it could all be in my mind and that he's just being a bit lazy with his hind end.

Video not good as was taken for a different purpose but does show him at trot in circles. Video was taken yesterday.

I had a horse with suspensory ligament problems once before so am fully aware sometimes I may be looking for things which most people wouldn't be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_v1TeBzpmQ

 

[Dark Storm]

He looks like he's not putting much power in his hind legs when you take him on the left rein, something defo going on there? see if you can persuade him to pick up a bit in speed, he looks like he doesn't really want to do it..

 

[Yann]

He doesn't look quite right to me either, but it's slight and I'm struggling to see whether it's worse in one leg than the other in the vid. I've spent the last year staring at Rio's hind end with similar stuff going on, but her issues have been a lot more obvious.

Add the stuffiness in trot and worsening on one rein and it would be something that would give me cause for concern and possibly warrant further investigation. How old is he? Could it be spavins?

 

[Innocence]

Too me he looks like he doesn't want to put any effort into using his hind legs, looks a bit stiff on both reins in trot but that could just be my eyes.

 

[laceyfreckle]

He doesn't look quite right to me either, but it's slight and I'm struggling to see whether it's worse in one leg than the other in the vid. I've spent the last year staring at Rio's hind end with similar stuff going on, but her issues have been a lot more obvious.

Add the stuffiness in trot and worsening on one rein and it would be something that would give me cause for concern and possibly warrant further investigation. How old is he? Could it be spavins?

Glad I'm not the only one staring at hind legs scratching my head lol. Whatever it is is slight. 'I' think his right hind leg is the one that looks 'off' although both are lacking a bit. I haven't any experience of spavins but he hasn't got any lumps or bumps on any of his legs that I can see. Am considering getting the vet to have a look but I know vets only really like seeing lameness if it's prominent, makes their life difficult otherwise!

He looks like he's not putting much power in his hind legs when you take him on the left rein, something defo going on there? see if you can persuade him to pick up a bit in speed, he looks like he doesn't really want to do it..

The left rein is worse then the right. He has been avoiding circling groundwork on thar rein although has been fine ridden apat from a bit stuffy. If I ask for more speed on the left rein he throws his toys out of the pram a bit and tries to change rein. He speeds up nicely on the right rein.

Admittedly some of the not wanting to, might be because this particular assignment he doesn't like doing and we have been having arguments about spiralling in on the left rein with impulsion (and he still doesn't do it in this vid)

 

[laceyfreckle]

How old is he? QUOTE]

He's 13 but I don't know much about his past, I can assume he has been hunting and has done jumping. I would also fathom a bet that he had been schooled/shown in his younger years but they're all calculated guesses as I bought him from a dealer who wasn't keen to say/didn't know his past.

 

[Pigletsmum]

Could it be an abscess brewing ?

I'm another one obsessed with watching and obsessing over hind legs :frown:

 

[carthorse]

There's something not right IMO, but it's hard to tell what from that clip. Can someone trot him up properly for you in a straight line? If he looks ok then then see what he looks like on the lunge when he's going forwards properly. I'd be thinking of getting the vet to check him over if he was mine.

 

[Dark Storm]

Have you had his back checked? I think there's something going on with his hips or perhaps his hocks? He looks like he's trying to avoid a pain in those areas? My lad had partially rotated hips early in the year, and didn't like circles much either....

 

[Dark Storm]

There's something not right IMO, but it's hard to tell what from that clip. Can someone trot him up properly for you in a straight line? If he looks ok then then see what he looks like on the lunge when he's going forwards properly. I'd be thinking of getting the vet to check him over if he was mine.

Some times lameness doesn't show in straight lines, but in when the horse does a circle, they try to avoid crossing that leg, by shuffling - when he turns in a tight circle (around you), his foot will not leave the floor but he'll do his turn with the leg twisting in the direction followed by the hoof, if you understand what I mean? It usually means the lameness is higher up in the leg itself, not the foot.. or on some occasions, the horse is being lazy, but I don't think this is the case with this horse...

 

[laceyfreckle]

Yann - I hate it so much when you're possibly right :stomp::unsure:

Thanks everyone else for your comments too......

It's not nice to know he's out of sync but it is nice to know I'm not imagining things.

I had a good look at his legs etc today and I think the problem is his hocks. He is slightly hesistant with his right hind (seen when walking quickly away from me in his field towards a feed bucket) and after a good look he does seem to have something small, hard and bony on his inside left hind. I imagine it is sore as he went to kick me when I touched it and he's not normally bad with his feet/legs.

I think a phone call to a vet tomorrow might be in order for a visit. Maybe he heard me talking about turning him away for winter lol.

 

[Yann]

Yann - I hate it so much when you're possibly right

It was only a guess and I can assure you I'd rather not be Did look a bit bilateral though, at least if that is the case the outlook is usually pretty good. Best of luck.

 

[carthorse]

Some times lameness doesn't show in straight lines, but in when the horse does a circle, they try to avoid crossing that leg, by shuffling - when he turns in a tight circle (around you), his foot will not leave the floor but he'll do his turn with the leg twisting in the direction followed by the hoof, if you understand what I mean? It usually means the lameness is higher up in the leg itself, not the foot.. or on some occasions, the horse is being lazy, but I don't think this is the case with this horse...

I know that Dark Storm, but by going back to a straight line you've got a better idea of what to tell the vet, particularly if the lameness is slight. I'd prefer to be able to say at the start that he looks ok in a straight line but not on a circle, better on a soft surface than hard etc. It's trying to get a better idea of how lame he is & where the problem is likely to be, not saying that if he's ok in a straight line then he's ok!

 

[laceyfreckle]

It was only a guess and I can assure you I'd rather not be Did look a bit bilateral though, at least if that is the case the outlook is usually pretty good. Best of luck.

What is the treatment/outlook for such a thing? I haven't much (any) experience of it really.

 

[Yann]

No direct experience (yet?) but if it is the case then treatment is usually geared towards getting the small bones in the hock that are causing the problem to fuse, after which the horse is often fine and still capable of a reasonable level of work. The interim period usually involves keeping the horse in light work even if they're not completely sound. Your vet will hopefully tell you better.

 

[laceyfreckle]

No direct experience (yet?) but if it is the case then treatment is usually geared towards getting the small bones in the hock that are causing the problem to fuse, after which the horse is often fine and still capable of a reasonable level of work. The interim period usually involves keeping the horse in light work even if they're not completely sound. Your vet will hopefully tell you better.

That does sound hopefull. I'm more concerned as hacking is a bit of a problem and we only really school or compete lol. I'm sure we can find a way where all will be ok though. Harvey would be more devastated then me if he couldn't jump anymore.

Will phone the vet tomorrow and see if he can come out for a look, and will stay hopeful in the mean time.

 

[eml]

Perhaps I am being a philistine here but the things that come over to me are principally lack of impulsion and lacking suppleness to do the exercise particularly on the left rein. If he were mine I would be getting him on a conventional lunge to see if creating impulsion made a difference or riding him forward and trying various exercises under saddle on both reins again with more impulsion.

My next step would be a visit from an Osteo/chirpractor/physio/farrier/foot balance expert which ever you believe in and only after all that would I be going down the vet/lameness work up route. I have seen too many people spend a fortune and have unnecessary procedures done on horses that perhaps were not perfect in their action but to be honest very few horses are 'perfect' in action.

 

[laceyfreckle]

Perhaps I am being a philistine here but the things that come over to me are principally lack of impulsion and lacking suppleness to do the exercise particularly on the left rein. If he were mine I would be getting him on a conventional lunge to see if creating impulsion made a difference or riding him forward and trying various exercises under saddle on both reins again with more impulsion.

My next step would be a visit from an Osteo/chirpractor/physio/farrier/foot balance expert which ever you believe in and only after all that would I be going down the vet/lameness work up route. I have seen too many people spend a fortune and have unnecessary procedures done on horses that perhaps were not perfect in their action but to be honest very few horses are 'perfect' in action.

Impulsion recently has been a problem. He's the same on the conventional lunge (we do lunge as well as circling). When he's in the paddock you can see that he moves his left hind slightly quicker then his right hind even in walk although it isn't pronounced, just looks a bit stiff. What is fustrating is he could do the spiral exercise really well about a month ago (just not the changes in direction due to me getting in his way) and the right rein was slightly worse then the left then.

He was last checked by a physio about a year ago, so is due for another check up but she's not keen on seeing horses without verbal or written vet agreement. His feet do need doing this week as well. (farrier).

I can see what you mean though eml regarding unneccessary stuff, lameness/stiffness is really hard to deal with through a vet without being invasive.

I think what I will do is phone the vet tomorrow and explain over the phone my concern and get him to give the ok for the physio to come and see what she thinks before we get as far as vet call out (that way if he's in the loop and it does turn into something expensive then my insurance will cover the physio as well.) Farrier is due out this week so will try and get the physio to come after he has been as would prefer feet trimmed first, plus my farrier is preety good when it comes to lumps/bumps etc. Does that sound a better plan?

 

[eml]

I am possibly biased as we don't insure for vets fees!!

Lameness we start with our super farrier...he looks after then all even though only a few are shod. Not quite right in muscles we have a lady who had qaulifications in equine massage and Shiatzu...she will normally pick up muscle problems. If she recommends or we see a joint problem we use an equine Osteopath. To be honest however for the vast majority of problems we either use schooling exercises (such as very stiff horse who couldn't canter) or turn away for extended period (horse who went over backward in his previous home and has shoulder/wither issues)

Our vets are happy with this approach as often their recommended treatment would be turnout/rest etc but do bear in mind I have had horses for an awful long time and a wide variety of them. Most of ours Vets actually moan that I see more in a trot up than they can, and we have turned round horses with injuries they would not have contemplated treating in other hands.

We have one mare who is 'interesting', rears vertically and if that fails throws herself on the ground, when you are still attached gets up and carries on as if nothing happened. We tried all our experts..most couldn't even touch her without her freaking out...vets view..pain try her on bute and see what happens. Three weeks later and up to six bute a day our favourite vet (equine practice but some are better than others) ...said ' I am sorry she is just a bitch good luck with her' . We know she has serious phycological issues stemming from her past but wanted that all clear to treat her as such.

So yes my preference would be 'alternative routes' as a first port of call

 

[laceyfreckle]

I am possibly biased as we don't insure for vets fees!!

Lameness we start with our super farrier...he looks after then all even though only a few are shod. Not quite right in muscles we have a lady who had qaulifications in equine massage and Shiatzu...she will normally pick up muscle problems. If she recommends or we see a joint problem we use an equine Osteopath. To be honest however for the vast majority of problems we either use schooling exercises (such as very stiff horse who couldn't canter) or turn away for extended period (horse who went over backward in his previous home and has shoulder/wither issues)

Our vets are happy with this approach as often their recommended treatment would be turnout/rest etc but do bear in mind I have had horses for an awful long time and a wide variety of them. Most of ours Vets actually moan that I see more in a trot up than they can, and we have turned round horses with injuries they would not have contemplated treating in other hands.

We have one mare who is 'interesting', rears vertically and if that fails throws herself on the ground, when you are still attached gets up and carries on as if nothing happened. We tried all our experts..most couldn't even touch her without her freaking out...vets view..pain try her on bute and see what happens. Three weeks later and up to six bute a day our favourite vet (equine practice but some are better than others) ...said ' I am sorry she is just a bitch good luck with her' . We know she has serious phycological issues stemming from her past but wanted that all clear to treat her as such.

So yes my preference would be 'alternative routes' as a first port of call

Thanks, Harvey is the only one of mine insured simply because I don't know his past and call me a skeptic but he was cheapish.

Farrier will be my next/first port of call I think. He is really great! So much so that I've stuck with him even though I don't have any shod horses anymore.

He has had shiatsu in the past as well, I'm assuming that would be preferential to start rather then a physiotherapist? (and cheaper!) What's the difference between a physiotherapist and a osteopath? He was very stiff on both sides when I first got him which was helped by schooling exercises. Most of our schooling exercises are still suppling exercises such as circles, serpentines, figures of 8 and transitions. He is finding the left rein harder then he was.

Turning away for a short time may be a possibility as I was considering doing this in November regardless, hadn't decided yet.

Your mare....she's not dk bay and didn't come with the name Sanchez did she? She sounds exactly the same as one I knew a long time ago. Her problems were found to be phsycological as well, she had what we used to call a 'flip switch' but if you coped with the 'flip' then the switch was pushed onto 'happy' and she was fine (ish) lol.