Impervious baby horse

Jane&Ziggy

Jane&Sid these days!
Apr 30, 2010
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I just get the feeling that Charlie could become a bossy boots, and I don't want that to happen, so I thought I'd try a bit of join up with him today.

Well OMG he will NOT be sent away. I got him to go away from me about 50% of the time. The rest of the time he just stood and looked at me hopefully, or cheekily, who knows? I tried really hard to stay behind his drive line, but if I went to walk behind him when he was stuck, he backed up a little and kept turning to look at me. He simply did not want to move away.

He did trot and canter away from me about 50% of the time. He had an ear on me, and when he was still he was thinking about it, licking and chewing. He never dropped his head once, though.

After the session he followed me happily enough and led better when I took him out of the school. But I am left with the feeling that I didn't quite get through to him!

I have an NH instructor coming to work with us in a week, and I'll be glad for her guidance. But in the meantime, does anyone else have an impervious horse?
 
Join up doesn’t work with all horses though. It may not be the way he needs to be trained. You may need to look at other methods.

I’ve been putting manners into Faran since I bought him, I usually go with control the feet control the horse so he goes my pace my way of he refuses he’s moved around until he accepts that it’s my way and then goes.

I also charge at him like another horse would and he then knows he’s in for it and runs, he comes back looking and acting apologetic then gets allowed back near me.
 
Personally I can't see the point of sending away a horse that has done nothing wrong and wants to be with you anyway. I did it once with Raf in the early days - I asked my RI to give me a lesson because I'd 'read the books' and thought it sounded good - but actually I think it just confused and upset Raf, which didn't make me feel good either.
 
Not a fan of join up, if the horse wants to be with you and is focused on you anyway, surely that is the end aim of join up??

Maybe long reining would be better for him as you have control of him through the reins and can drive him forward. I did lots with Scully and she was a very "can't be bothered" sort, it certainly helped the bond between us.
 
Thank you all. It did get his attention, which is desirable.
I also charge at him like another horse would and he then knows he’s in for it and runs, he comes back looking and acting apologetic then gets allowed back near me.

I should try the charging thing!

Personally I can't see the point of sending away a horse that has done nothing wrong and wants to be with you anyway. I did it once with Raf in the early days - I asked my RI to give me a lesson because I'd 'read the books' and thought it sounded good - but actually I think it just confused and upset Raf, which didn't make me feel good either.

It doesn't feel any more unpleasant to me than sending a horse away on a lunge line. The thing is that I'm not sure the he wants tp be with me - it doesn't feel as if he thinks much of me, TBH!

Maybe long reining would be better for him as you have control of him through the reins and can drive him forward. I did lots with Scully and she was a very "can't be bothered" sort, it certainly helped the bond between us.

I really like long reining and will get him doing it ASAP. He is exceptionally bold and I think he'll like going in front.

I'll report back on how I get on with the trainer!
 
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I think it takes time.
I did some join up with my lad when I got him. The send away was done when he tried to test me. He didnt want to let me change his rug in the middle of the field. I've always done that with chunky, no headcollar etc. So when I tried to change it with Billy he started running off and wouldn't let me near him. So in the end I went and got a lunge whip and I chased him round the field. If i saw him lick or chew then he was invited in. But he quite often said sod you and ran off. Some of the reason I'm sure was due to my inexperience as I'd never done join up before. So for me recognising the signs wasn't always done at the right time. We had several occasions where he did this pratting round the field, your not rugging me and me chasing him away. Some how we have succeeded though as he doesnt give me any hassle now.
I've had better success with clicker training I must say. I tried doing clicker training with a target after watching a video and thought I'll give that ago. I was amazed that Billy got it in minutes. I haven't asked him to target for a couple of months and the other day I thought I'll just try him, to my amazement he went straight to the target. I actually want to use the target to improve his intelligence as I think he is a quick learner, but i haven't had much time recently.
 
Thanks @chunky monkey . I like clicker training too. It worked brilliantly with Ziggy, who would do handstands for a treat,, but Charlie has never been given food treats and I'm not sure how I'd get on with a different reward like scratches. Did you always use food treats?
 
Leo was dreadful to catch, up to 3 hours. We tried getting him to join up, he just couldn't do it that night despite lots of effort. But next day he did. I found it is a very good way to catch him. He goes on a circle on his own and then he will come in to you and you can touch him and catch him. Similarly I find with him if I ask him to give a foot, he will give that and then I can catch him. You can now catch in in 5 minutes even in a huge field, as the minute you go and play with him he really wants to be with you. Certainly a lot better than trudging round a field trying to get his attention. Charlie sounds as if he is going to be fun.....
 
It doesn't feel any more unpleasant to me than sending a horse away on a lunge line. The thing is that I'm not sure the he wants tp be with me - it doesn't feel as if he thinks much of me, TBH!

Maybe that's the difference - Raf knew all about lunging (Charlie obviously won't) and lunging to me and Raf means sending out (rather than away) on a circle to do exercises that he understands. He is perfectly capable of doing this free schooling without the lunge line too (me, not so much). But when I tried join up I felt as though I was chasing him away and punishing him for something that he had no clue about - because he had done nothing wrong. He was upset and confused, but then again he is a sensitive soul and tries his best to tune into what his human companion wants.

I can see the benefit if the horse has no wish to be connected to the human. I believe the purpose is for the human to drive the horse away from the 'herd' which then drives the horse's instinctive desire to get back in with the herd and therefore he makes submissive gestures towards the herd leader, asking to be re-admitted. I was so keen to do it because I thought it would give us a stronger bond, but in mine and Raf's case it was pointless because why would I want to drive him away from the herd when he was already a model herd member, ie co-operated with and tried to trust his human. I still feel bad for doing it and it was many years ago now.

But I've seen join up, or something along the same principles, used very effectively when a friend couldn't catch her rather difficult horse and so spent a little while driving him away all over the field (with a fair amount of bad language I have to say :p ) until he was almost begging to be caught.
 
If a horse comes to you I think it pointless to send him away. I would never do it to any of the horses I have ridden.
The Monty Roberts join up was devised for problem horses. Rashid and Parelli dont do it.

Thanks to someone who left NR and now posts elsewhere, I have just read Tik Maynard whose great maxim is to have the horse relaxed.
 
Mine wouldn't go away either. When she did she could come back at you or stand up, it really annoyed her. We only did it the once! not for us.

As others have said nh type things don't suit every horse- however- if I ask a horse to back up out of my personal space and get your hoof off my ruddy foot, I expect it to.
Mine will lunge but it still to this day takes a little time for her to take up all the line and be at the end of it.

So I would concentrate on your personal space, let him in if he wants to come in, on your say so, but just be aware of where he is or if he bumps into you.

A horse that wants to be with you is priceless. It can take years to build that bond. Just check the why they are wanting to be with you, is it because you are a pushover literally or because they are a baby and they are insecure or because you are worth being with.

Ps he has that cheeky face. The what! And whatever what!
 
Welcome to the world of finding out.

Do you recall that thread I did about catching the cob with an apple. I actually gave up because I got fed up of eating it! She comes because she wants to and if she doesn't, well you come to me. Seen her do it to the herd and they come running!!

If he comes over in the field and then wanders off, that's normal behaviour.
If after taking him out of the field to do something, you then turn him lose and offer him some scratches you might not see him leave so quickly. You are useful. :)
 
Join up has its place with some horses, between mine Dan would probably benefit from it, Hank wouldn't move away 95% of the time and Jessica would probably do it begrudgingly once or twice because I was asking before having a tantrum in my direction because it was an uncalled for 'disciplining'. A friend dropped water off to the trough last weekend, trying to get out he was revving the engine, nudging forward at them and honking and in turn Hank and Jess both stood their ground and had to be fetched out of the way, they aren't spooky run aways, Dan on the other hand was out of there at the first hint of being approached, that's their different nature's showing through.
I wouldn't be expecting a baby to think you the center of his world within a week of arriving, for a good while his field mates will be more important because he's spending 90% of his time there.
If I don't want a baby getting bolshy I just do simple led work as part of everyday handling, walk, trot, stop, back and turn when asked, until on the lead they become very used to minding their p's and q's, clicker could be useful for that. When loose in the field that's their time to be a baby, however if they play at me I'd do the aggressive mare launch/send off to remind them about personal space :)
 
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Thanks @Jessey , good to know, and I'm trying not to expect much from him - he is still settling in.

Interestingly this morning he was much more interested in me, wanted to follow me everywhere, and pawed annoyedly when he couldn't get through the gate after me. Perhaps he is getting to know me a bit!
 
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