I am the anti-christ apparently.. suggested smacks for naughty horse..

BIrish

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Nov 13, 2007
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What, seriously, would you suggest..

16.3 HW 8yo IDxCob owned for 3 years by a friend.. bombproof, usually fairly placid but forward to ride/school, hacks nicely, is a bit pushy but usually easy to handle on the ground etc etc..BUT knows her own strength and uses it against you when she wants.. Can refuse to lead, squash you against walls, won't enter or leave arena/yard/stable without a row, cow kicks and bites. All MOT's have been done and passed with flying colours (Back/Saddle/Teeth/General health etc.. incl bloods for hormone imbalances/other illness etc) She had an experienced RI who maintains that horse is just a cow sometimes. Breeder says her mother could be the same. Horse has never (knowingly) been ill-treated.. was backed sympathetically and brought on slowly.



When mare first did this I got on (at owner's suggestion) and made mare go out of yard, up drive and into school whereupon she turned from savage psycho horse into lovely willing ride.. I did smack her but sparingly and only when she really deserved it (backing into wall and double barrelling it/bronking/trying to roll) and not repeatedly but 1 very sharp stingy slap and a good growling at for each naughtiness as it happened - the whole process took about 8mins).. Owner took this approach and horse was 101% improved.. after a while rarely needing to do anything but growl if she napped etc to sort it out..

Owner moved yards and began not smacking/growling etc.. but used long rope/BeNice and circling to try to sort any napping. Problems escalated. Yesterday threw one of her paddy's - Resulting in a large haematoma on owners thigh (kicked by mare while doing circling on long rope), 6 stitches for bite on arm during refusal to walk off yard and a broken big toe (from napping rearing mare)..


She asked for advice/POV and I suggested the smacky/growly route..Owners knows me for several years and knows I don't beat my animals..but totally freaked out.. accused me of inciting cruelty and being callous... Yard-based friend of A also laid into me.. Saying how unhappy my horses must be belonging to someone like me that smacks! .. I'm furious atm but also bemused that anyone could think a smack for genuine naughty behaviour is cruel/abuse.. :rolleyes:

I think horse is just bolshy and stubborn as once she realises you aren't going to be intimidated she gives in quickly and is a charming forward ride.. but now I'm the devil for suggesting smacking!

What would y'all suggest doing with this horse if you had to give advice..?

Do you think smackygrowly treatment is cruelty ?? (I'm quite sure that I'm not cruel btw - just wondered what other people's take on it all is)
 

palmerlover52

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Feb 21, 2006
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I don't really feel that a short smack with a crop is cruel, if the situation calls for it. There are often better ways and it should be a last resort, and never out of anger though.

Take in the wild for example, the herd leader will often bite/kick out at another horse to establish the dominance.

I'd personally suggest backing off the riding and working on groundwork right now to establish manners and respect.
 
J

jaydevon

Guest
i dont think your cruel, having a mare that behaves in the same way, we had an inncident where she refused to budge from the end of a lane, after several rears and kicking out i got peed off and she got her bum smacked up the road. until she was going forward without protest.


she trys to kick me.... i kick back.

this ones good.... shes tird to squish me and the farrier against a wall when i first had her, 6 foot of bloke half way up a wall with both feet on her pushing her back..... shes nevver squished since.

im a firm beliver in treating them how they treat us, whilst also allowing them to have thoughts and an opinion, if that makes sence,

and no my horse doesnt hate me, she canters over the moment she sees me, and nickers when i enter the stable, i respect her, she respects me.
 

gordysgirl

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Considering she passed MOT with flying colours it sounds like there is a respect issure between horse & owner. Is owner perhaps now scared of horses behaviour?
I'm afraid it sounds like horse knnows what it can do to avoid work & is taking full advantage of it.
I am not against smacking a horse if it is severly misbehaving & it does sound like the horse does not respect other methods of 'encouragement'!

I would suggest to your friend that if she doesn't want to listen to your advice that she gets herself an RI who can help her.
 

Sarah_Sayers

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Nov 15, 2006
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Don't have much experience, but personally feel that a smack to keep a naughty horse in line, is far far better than problems snow-balling to the point the horse is too much for owner and has to be sold.
 
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Joyscarer

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Dec 30, 2006
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Well I think the language around this subject is emotive and can get peoples backs up. We see this on NR all the time :rolleyes:

I don't use my crop as punishment but I do use it to reinforce a leg aid if required.

So the word 'smack' doesn't apply in my case although the word tap does. :p

Of course there are those that would never use a crop in which case the word 'tap' isn't any better than the word 'smack in which case I am the anti christ too!

I think if you ask your friend if she beilives in using a crop at all then you will have a better idea of where she is coming from and can just say that she wouldn't appreciate your approach and she should ask likeminded people for advice as they are the ones who she is trying to emulate.


Not much help am I! :D
 

Joyscarer

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Dec 30, 2006
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I don't really feel that a short smack with a crop is cruel, if the situation calls for it. There are often better ways and it should be a last resort, and never out of anger though.

Take in the wild for example, the herd leader will often bite/kick out at another horse to establish the dominance.

I'd personally suggest backing off the riding and working on groundwork right now to establish manners and respect.

I knew you would be the right person to be Joy's other mummy and that sums it up :D
 
Y

Yann

Guest
I'd personally avoid smacking if I could and concentrate on getting the handling correct and effective. Just because horses bite and kick each other doesn't mean we need to copy them, it can cause resentment in some horses. It's not about being soft, far from it, just being consistent and assertive. The problem is sometimes more with the handler than the horse.
 

perkypinky

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Nov 13, 2007
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i was really sorry to read your post - i cant believe that people are so ungratefull - you helped owner and sorted horse out (which i assume she was thriiled about) and then slagged you off when she asked for advise and you gave it?????????? If she knew how you achieved results the first time, surely she would know what your methods would be. Sometimes 'horsey' people amaze me! My advise would be to back off completly - let her get on with it and take the abuse that the horse gives!
i am not a big smacker because im a wuss - BUT i totally agree that big strong horses need to have discipline and that sometimes includes a samcked bottom - I am going tobe VERY controversial here by saying that children need it too sometimes - and this namby pamby society is chruning out delinquent hosses and children!!! THERE IVE SAID IT!!! shoot me down if you like but they are my views!
Having just made this statement i certainly do not agree with excesive violence to either pets/horses or children.....................
 

BIrish

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JayDevon - I tend to treat my horses like you do.. basically as they treat each other.. I don't think I'm cruel either but am flabbergasted at being attacked as such.. My horses are all affectionate and want to be around me.. but also behave in a civilised manner - no room for that nonsense on my yard.. behave or there are consequences is the rule :D

PalmerLover - this is the main prob with the mare - 90% of the time she is pretty much perfect to handle and ride but then 10% of the time she has a hissy fit and gets horrifically nappy - and there doesn't seem to be any pattern - owner even kept a behaviour diary at the suggestion of her Vet for a year to see if there was any rhyme or reason to it all.. she just seems to get out of bed on the wrong side now and again..
:rolleyes:

PS - She has NEVER been smacked in anger either.
 
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coyote

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May 2, 2007
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you are cwwwwuel and evil person and will go to hell..........................along with most of the showing fraternity and most horse owners,good god who hasnt growled or sounded gruff or smacked when chastising a horse for nipping,threatening with legs or worse ect
Most horse phsychology books make it pretty clear to assert your herd leadership,its not a case of beating your hoss,but if it comes down to personal safety and a threatening growl,flick with a whip or slap on the shoulder then i know which ill choose everytime!
You end up with a rather large horse dictating what happens and when and thats a dangerous combination to have.
BTW before anyone stamps on me from a great height ive been in a situation just like this with my 17hh irish hunter and he tried to kill me,my daughter and her pony in the field,he soon stopped after one smack with my lunge whip,suggested by a H/P book! :mad:
 

WooHoo2

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Apr 7, 2005
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I've just come back from a short hack with BB, and at the turn before home (on a busy A road) she decided that errrr No, she wanted to stay out longer!
So had a stupid attempt at rearing & spinning! She's NEVER done that before!

So I growled, and pushed her forward, using my schooling stick to back up my leg aid. Then she went in a willing walk home!

I wasn't "anti-christ"... I was "Pro-Horse"

Yes, plenty of ground work will help, but a dominant horse doesn't get to be leader unless it lets others know what is and isn't acceptable.
 
A

AengusOg

Guest
Smacking horses is a no-no as far as I'm concerned.

I don't reprimand, I only praise good behaviour with my voice. 'Bad behaviour' is a lack of understanding (on the part of the horse) of what is required, and I would patiently give it another chance to get it right until it does, then praise.

Using a long rope and a 'Be-Nice halter is easy..........if you know how to get the best from your horse by using it properly.

Knowing what to do if a horse begins using evasions to avoid doing as its asked (provided it does understand what is being asked) is a lot more complicated.

Putting training halters and long ropes on horses, with limited input from the handler, doesn't guarantee the horse's good behaviour.

Working a horse in any tack requires a knowledge of how that tack works, how to use it, a level of concentration and commitment to the task, and a plan 'B' if it all goes wrong suddenly.

I suspect some, or all, of these is lacking here, and the mare is taking full advantage.
 
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WooHoo2

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BUT i totally agree that big strong horses need to have discipline and that sometimes includes a samcked bottom - I am going tobe VERY controversial here by saying that children need it too sometimes - and this namby pamby society is chruning out delinquent hosses and children!!! THERE IVE SAID IT!!! shoot me down if you like but they are my views!


Ha ha ~ totally agree! My kids all got smacked bots, and now they all tower over me, they wouldn't dream of being rude to me or being offensive!

But it's not just big strong horses that need discipline ~ my shetlands are more of a handful than my 16.3 mare with PMT!

It ALL comes down to responsibility ~ no one wants to accept it anymore.
Going back to the OP, the "friend" with horse sounds like she's stopped taking responsibilty for her horses behaviour and blaming others, and that there's always a reason for her horse, not that it's her not acting properly, and taking good advice when given it!
 

BIrish

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ii am not a big smacker because im a wuss - BUT i totally agree that big strong horses need to have discipline and that sometimes includes a samcked bottom - I am going tobe VERY controversial here by saying that children need it too sometimes - and this namby pamby society is chruning out delinquent hosses and children!!! THERE IVE SAID IT!!! shoot me down if you like but they are my views!
Having just made this statement i certainly do not agree with excesive violence to either pets/horses or children.....................

Hurrah!!! *throwshatinairinjoy* AM not the only one who thinks this!! Yay!

I don't by any means condone randomly beating any animal (or child) but I do think there is a line and if it's crossed I am not prepared to "discuss" the issue anymore - retribution is swift. I consider that line to be the horse using force against me and therefore endangering me.

I can patiently wait for a horse to work through a problem but any behaviour such as kicking/biting etc gets reprimanded sharply. It is non-negotiable and not ever acceptable to challenge me physically.

The mare is a big, strong, opinonated girl and once she had definite behaviour boundaries reacted well and was a nice horse to deal with..Owner moved yards and changed handling technique (not that this is a bad thing) but it clearly doesn't work for this particular horse and now owner (although denies it strongly) sounds afraid of the mare.
 
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Showjumper

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Dec 30, 2000
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Do you think smackygrowly treatment is cruelty?

No, definitely not if it is warranted and the horse has been given the option to behave based on "kinder" cues first. I believe in the mantra of "Do as little as possible but as much as is necessary".

My mare got a major smack with a whip a good few years ago when she planted in the middle of a road we were crossing. I asked her nicely to walk on, I growled, I kicked, and she ignored me so she got a wallop and walked on pretty quick! It was a situation that could have ended really badly for both of us if a car had come so had to be dealt with.

Sounds like this mare has caused a huge amount of damage and if that could have been avoided by giving her a smacked bum, hell yeah, go for the smacked bum!

Then again I want my horses to be safe to be around. Lots of other people don't seem to care so much about this...therefore mine have 3 ground rules which I expect to be obeyed AT ALL TIMES. They are:
1) Don't kick me
2) Don't bite me
3) Don't run me over (and this includes stepping back when I open the stable door, whether I have a bucket of food or not!)

They're both adorable, friendly, outgoing, affectionate ponies and have the added bonus of being able to be safely tied up on the yard without worrying about them hurting other horses or people.
 
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BIrish

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Nov 13, 2007
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you are cwwwwuel and evil person and will go to hell..........................along with most of the showing fraternity

:D:D:D

I am ESPECIALLY bad as am a showing bod... ;)..all those cwwwuel and tortuous things I do to get my horses to go well in the ring..

I think you must be hacking my laptop and reading my emails! FriendOfOwner did actually mention my use of lilets and sponges in the ring.. and how it was abuse.. :eek::mad::rolleyes:

To Quote;

"how you can subject the horses you consider family to the practices in the ring is beyond me the use of sponges and lilets in particular horrifies me and makes me ill with fear for your horse's wellbeing and"
 
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babydave35

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Jan 22, 2008
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I have one 15yr old and a 11mth old coloured cob, i got foal at 3 mths old yes i know far to young came with my friends supposedly easier to wean that way (thats another story), Oscar is my first foal and have used a smack on the chest with him when he got silly, he had verbal command first if that did not sink in then the smack was given. I never smack on head as i dont wan him head shy, he is 11 mths old now and a brilliant first foal can do any thing with him was seen by farrier at 6 mths for a trim had a little rug on him when he was bout 4 mths old, i have put a bit in his mouth last week. I beleive if an animal knows who is the leader then the partnership is far better and rewarding. I have 2 rescue GSD and they have been hard work especially Bear with his past history of physicall abuse, i made the decision not to use smacking i use a check chain and it works far better he knows what i want without the need for a smack. All animals are different and react differently to situations and people. You said that the horse got better with the method that you used do you know why the owner changed the training method? Seems daft changing something that worked it would just confuse the horse. I would love advice on showing as il be taking Oscar and Troy this year.
Regards Kirsty
 
A

AengusOg

Guest
Having just made this statement i certainly do not agree with excesive violence to either pets/horses or children.....................

So what's your cut off point?

And does it depend on whether the punishment being meted out is an angry response, a 'responsible' response, a compassionate response...............or perhaps stems from embarassment, or even a feeling of inadequacy? All relevant emotions when dealing with horses, in my experience.

I feel it's better with horses, and children, to stop them in their tracks and give them the opportunity to understand what's best and to try again.

I think that would create a more rounded, responsible, and educated individual, rather than creating a feeling of misunderstanding, resistance, and resent.
 
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BIrish

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Nov 13, 2007
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I think if you ask your friend if she beilives in using a crop at all then you will have a better idea of where she is coming from and can just say that she wouldn't appreciate your approach and she should ask likeminded people for advice as they are the ones who she is trying to emulate.

She used to use a stick when needed and always carried one, now she uses a WipWop (sp ?) .. same thing different form to me ..

She doesn't mind whips per se but says that smacking mare is wrong as there are no whips in the wild (???????) ...I pointed out that no-one would be stabling/putting tack on, Wipwops or riding mare in the wild either.. that didn't go down so well.. :eek:
 
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