How good a rider do you need to be to properly school a horse? Sorry - long!

[bluntcrayon]

I class myself as a novice although I think I have made OK progress since I started riding again about 9 months ago. Have been sharing Harvey since Xmas and riding on average 3 times a week, and averaging about 1 lesson a month, practising 'homework' in between. RI seems pleased with how I'm doing and says my walk/trot work is good, have just started working on canter which is a different story (v lazy horse!) but RI thinks it will come on quickly like our trot work did - started off barely getting a decent trot and now have him reasonably off the leg and staying in trot without needing to nag.

Harvey is 8/9 years old, Claire bought him from a dealer 2/3 years ago and previously he had been in a trekking centre. She loaned him out to a local RS (where our RI worked, which is nice because she knows him and how to get the best from him) for a while. Not sure if anyone properly schooled him at the RS but apart from that time I don't think he's ever really been schooled. He knows the basics - go/go faster/slow down/stop, left/right - so we're working at about the same level he doesn't seem to understand leg aids in terms of turning/bending (eg if I go from A-C, drop rein contact and try to steer him with my legs he doesn't respond/our circles are more oblong/diamond - although I may not be asking correctly!) and I haven't tried anything more complex than that! And he doesn't work in an outline or 'on the bit' (as I understand it).

I guess my question is, will I be able to school him, with lessons obviously, so that he improves as I improve? Or is getting him to work better something only a more experienced rider can achieve? I guess I would like to think that I could be a positive influence and improve his way of going, and that he would be able to 'grow up with me' as I improve in my riding and hopefully move towards an intermediate level, maybe even do a little comp like a walk/trot test one day, but I'm under no illusions as to my skill level. I don't have high expectations - he is what he is, which is lazy, although RI tells me he has jumped clear rounds at 2"6 - and only really have a vague idea of what we might aspire to - lateral work means going sideways? lol - but it would be lovely to feel we have 'grown up together' and also to feel that I have 'added value' to Claire's horse, not that she plans to sell him but she's so generous with her time and advice that it would be nice to feel I have done something positive and I'm sure she would be happy to see Harvey do well.

Also, part of me worries I am doing more harm than good RI says I am doing well and Harvs is certainly not the type of horse to worry too much about who's on his back, but I know I'm a novice and worry I might be teaching him bad habits or letting him get away with things. When Claire came off Victory and broke her toe she let me exercise him and wow, it was an experience and very enjoyable, although he is a handful, but when the RI got on him she said woah he's like a coiled spring and needs disciplining! I felt dreadful as that was obviously my fault for not getting him to work properly and not correcting him. V isn't an easy horse to ride, obviously too much for me and used to so much better but I felt really guilty like I'd sullied him

Thoughts please? Any novices who have successfully brought horses on???

 

[Skib]

In that context everything depends on what you mean by schooling and a good rider. Like you, I was learning stuff in my lesson which I practised or "taught" to the RS mare on hacks. It included (different weeks) bend and counter bend, leg yield and shoulder in which is what you have in mind as lateral work?

Riding school horses that are safe and tolerant are often unused to being ridden with contact and going on the bit. Added to that, the mare I hacked was not used in the school due to previous injury.

My view (as always) is that knowledge matters more than being an excellent rider. You need to know as much as possible about the history of the horse - like why did it arrive in a riding school in the first place? Was it due to faulty conformation or injury? What is the physical condition of the horse - Don't start a lot of intensive work under the impression it is the right thing to do. Even a fit and valuable horse is schooled very gradually to go with contact. We would often ask for some contact and collection in walk, towards the end of the ride, when the horse was supple and warmed up - and we wouldnt maintain it for long.

Then there is the past training - how the horse is used to being ridden. Horses learn quickly - so one can never be sure as one starts to teach things like bend and leg yield to an apparently un tutored RS horse, whether they haven't already learned that when first backed or trained to be ridden?

You describe dropping your reins - and losing steering. This isn't surprising. One can ride with a long rein and still have contact - i.e. walk with the rein at the buckle - but unless a horse has been trained to go bridle-less - the rein signals to the horse where his head must be, in terms of length (how collected, how long the strides) and bend. Trotting or cantering a circle, the outside rein is vital as it limits the amount of bend.

As rough guidance, Mark Rashid teaches that the reins control the front end of the horse and your legs the back end. Most of the time the horse's body follows where its nose goes. So when you use your legs riding a circle or turning a corner, it is to ensure that the back half of the horse's body follows smoothly on the same line as his front half. When I first leaned to ride, I was taught to turn simply by looking in the direction I wanted to go - as subtle as that.

In your place, I would avoid the word schooling - and just do your homework every week, which is what I did. What you need (as a novice) is for the horse to stop being "lazy" and start moving for you. The thing that is really bad for a horse is to carry a rider for hours on end with all the weight on its front end. So what is right for you is right for the horse too. Doing lots of transitions, turns and small circles in walk on both reins every time you warm up will help bring the horse's hind legs under his body - you will begin to feel the energy there. The transitions will teach instant response (as you've found in trot) and the turns and circles will improve his bend.

You are assuming that an RI who disciplines the horse is the big necessity - Riding style is a very personal thing, like handwriting. How you hold your hands? Whether you use whip or leg. How you choose to get your horse's attention. What is meant by disciplining? How you correct a horse that doesn't do what you want. At the moment you are doing what your RI says - and of course you cant mimic her entirely.

Since you are riding a great deal (I envy you) and are clearly very interested, it might be worth your while to read a few books, - Kelly Marks, Michael Peace, Mark Rashid are names that come to mind - go to some clinics - get yourself an equestrian education such as I was given on NR in my third and fourth year of riding? So you understand more about how horses learn, how they move and the different ways of communicating with them. It may be a whole lot easier than you think.

As for lazy horses. Horses are not lazy - they are grazing animals genetically programmed to conserve energy. In the modern world in stables, they are required to work in return for their food. What do you think he is "getting away with" when you ride him?
You are paying for your time on this horse and it is his job to give you a good time - regardless of whether you are experienced or not. And it is your job to set the level of work and attention you expect of him. If you aspire to do a walk trot dressage test, then that is what he has to do.

 

[No_Angel]

I think people tend to make 'schooling' horses too complicated, too many aids that mean different things and too much dictating to the horse what it should do and when.
I follow a more western approach to my schooling, the horse must stay at the speed I ask until I ask it to do something different, it knows go,stop, backwards and sideways from the word go, not by knowing any special aids, but just by having a leg or a hand in once place, the removal of the aid lets the horse know it's done what I want, simple. simple aids = less confused horse, less confused horse = calmer horse and easier to ride.
I had so much stress trying to school Murphy in the traditional BHS way, I used spurs as he wouldn't go off the leg, I used a pelham to get him in an 'outline' and got frustrated with him when he didn't do what I wanted. Now he is light off the leg and we do halt to trot with a squeeze of the leg.

My basic aids are:
hands forward = go forward
hands back = back up
hand up = slow
weight on pockets and hand up = halt
walk = squeeze with calf
trot = squeeze with heels
canter = one leg back and squeeze with heel

Very easy aids and most horses pick it up within mins.

 

[bluntcrayon]

Thanks for the responses food for thought! I love reading so have ordered a couple of books by authors you suggested Skib, Kelly Marks 'Perfect manners' and Michael Peace 'Think like your horse'.

 

[laceyfreckle]

I would think of it as 'practising homework or both of you improving something' rather then 'schooling' although it rather ammounts to the same thing

You don't need to know super amounts to school. Most people (me included) don't spend enough time on the basics anyway.

Don't underestimate simply teaching/practising going 'forward' Without forwardness it is hard to school anything else so getting him 'forward' is a great starting point. as are transitions even in the simple sense as walk to halt and walk to trot, halt to trot, trot to halt, canter to walk, walk to canter etc.

At the moment I'm spending loads of time on correct halts (not the falling into halt it's easy to get) and practising circles with correct bend.

Something that can be handy to do is to get a prelim dressage test and practise/work on perfecting the different elements in it..you'll be amazed how hard a 'straight centre line' can be!!

Why not have a go at a few interdressage comps? Like dressaging but without the stress of going somewhere and you get marks and advice on how/what to improve.

 

[Claire1605]

I would think of it as 'practising homework or both of you improving something' rather then 'schooling' although it rather ammounts to the same thing

You don't need to know super amounts to school. Most people (me included) don't spend enough time on the basics anyway.

Don't underestimate simply teaching/practising going 'forward' Without forwardness it is hard to school anything else so getting him 'forward' is a great starting point. as are transitions even in the simple sense as walk to halt and walk to trot, halt to trot, trot to halt, canter to walk, walk to canter etc.

At the moment I'm spending loads of time on correct halts (not the falling into halt it's easy to get) and practising circles with correct bend.

Something that can be handy to do is to get a prelim dressage test and practise/work on perfecting the different elements in it..you'll be amazed how hard a 'straight centre line' can be!!

Why not have a go at a few interdressage comps? Like dressaging but without the stress of going somewhere and you get marks and advice on how/what to improve.

I would say forwardness and straightness are a great basis for schooling and dressage.

Harveys problem is forwardness, straightness and also concentration!!!

You need all three to school correctly and do dressage.

You also need to be concentrated yourself. I am one who is so nosy I dont always concentrate fully so how can I expect my horse to lol.

This is something I am working on.

Harvey is very nosey and prefers to see what is going on outside the school.

I think with concentration, forwardness and straightness and also consistent work he will improve immensely.

As he get fitter and in a routine will also help.

 

[Cortrasna]

I think people tend to make 'schooling' horses too complicated, too many aids that mean different things and too much dictating to the horse what it should do and when.
I follow a more western approach to my schooling, the horse must stay at the speed I ask until I ask it to do something different, it knows go,stop, backwards and sideways from the word go, not by knowing any special aids, but just by having a leg or a hand in once place, the removal of the aid lets the horse know it's done what I want, simple. simple aids = less confused horse, less confused horse = calmer horse and easier to ride.
I had so much stress trying to school Murphy in the traditional BHS way, I used spurs as he wouldn't go off the leg, I used a pelham to get him in an 'outline' and got frustrated with him when he didn't do what I wanted. Now he is light off the leg and we do halt to trot with a squeeze of the leg.

My basic aids are:
hands forward = go forward
hands back = back up
hand up = slow
weight on pockets and hand up = halt
walk = squeeze with calf
trot = squeeze with heels
canter = one leg back and squeeze with heel

Very easy aids and most horses pick it up within mins.

I LIKE your post!!! Am coming to the conclusion that I am getting too hung up an all this 'must do it by the book' stuff and think TBH JJ is getting a bit fed up with it too. so this morning took him for a lovely hack, rode almost exactly as you describe it No angel (probably how Ive ridden for most of my life I guess) - didnt stress about head in correct position, is he or isnt he working correctly on the bit. Result - one very happy and relaxed horse and one very happy and relaxed rider!

 

[Kimmy C]

A lot of good advice there from everyone. The important thing to remember here is that you are willing and keen to learn and know your limitations at the moment. There is nothing worse that the rider always blaming the horse for not going properly. I think like everything in life there are great riders and there are not so great riders, me being the latter in my opinion but I know my limitations and even now try to improve and think before I blame the horse. Im sure you will both improve and you have the understanding together with keeness to learn. Good luck and I hope we will be seeing your videos on here soon.

 

[bluntcrayon]

Harveys problem is forwardness, straightness and also concentration!!!

Yup plenty to be working on!

 

[eml]

Any rider can improve a horse as soon as they learn to work forwards. Practicing what your RI does in lessons is 'schooling'.

Once you have the horse working forward and you work on bend and transitions the mysterious 'contact/outline' will appear...don't get too worried about what is happening in front think forward, bend and rythm and you will be getting a well schooled horse!