Horse biting training stick?

[hollywd]

I've recently started doing groundwork with my horse. He seems to be an old pro at friendly game, and then we have been working on porcupine and driving, and some yo-yo.

His responses can be erratic - sometimes he seems so tuned in it only takes the lightest effort on my part to get the proper reaction. Other times I have to go to phase 4 (usually if he is distracted, or I think maybe he gets bored and decides to ignore me).

When I do the driving game to yield his hindquarters, sometimes he gets really irritated with the stick and will go after it and try to bite it. I stand by his shoulder, look at his hip, tap the air, tap the air harder, then will do a light tap on the hip, escalate to a harder tap (not usually necessary).

Usually the light tap will work, if the previous ones don't. But even this first light tap seems to really irritate him sometimes and make him snap at the stick. And once he's irritated with the stick, any 'driving' gesture I make with it he will go after the stick (usually barging into my space to do so, which I then try to yo-yo him out).

I can go back to friendly game and then he could care less about the stick. But as soon as I bring it up with the intent for driving, he goes after it again. This is a very kind horse, so this reaction is surprising to me.

Is this normal? How do I stop it? It's very frustrating, and it upsets me to see my horse get upset and attack the stick. Today I felt like my game turned into a torture... it wasn't fun at all for either of us.

 

[annareeves0]

Hmm thats a tricky one! Have you tried driving with just your hand/arm? Would be worried that he'd try to bite you instead!!!! Does he still do this with porcupine to move his hindquarters? I wonder if he is a bit sensitive in this area and the stick irritates? Perhaps if he has had a crop used on his hindquarters in the past he has a negative feeling towards being 'hit' around there?
Not much help but would be interested to hear how you get around it.
Rosie is the same - some days I just glance at her hip and she moves and today I had to 'porcupine' really hard and then turn her head towards me to get her to move at all!
I was advised to use a 'noise maker' (bottle with pebbles in) to make Rosie back up if she ignores requests to back up if she barges past walking in hand - sometimes if I overuse it she definately gets annoyed with it and gets all flighty when I rattle it - good time to stop and us both calm down!

 

[hollywd]

It's definitely the stick itself, and not where it is used... I can 'drive' towards his forehand and he will still go after it. And like I said, with friendly game he could care less about it. It's when I'm asking him to do something by using the stick.

No problems with the porcupine, except that frequently he really tries to ignore it and I have to push as hard as I can to get a reaction.

I can try using my arm instead of the stick, or maybe use the end of the rope and see what he thinks of that. But at some point I'll have to deal with the stick, and I don't know what I'm supposed to do when he pushes around and tries to bite it.

He was definitely not happy with me about the whole thing, usually when I'm done I'll unhook his rope and we'll 'play' in the ring for a bit, and he follows me around like a puppy dog. Today he went over to the other side of the ring and stood next to some horses who were on the other side of the fence and gave me this look like, 'I want nothing to do with you, I'm going to hang out with these horses instead. They don't tap at me with a stick!'

I have a very good relationship with my horse, and I don't want to ruin it, so this stick thing is upsetting.

 

[Kate F.]

I think what has probably happened is that you stop asking when he bites the stick, so he thinks "bite the stick" is the right answer.

You need to make it clear that "move your hindquarters" is the right answer, not "bite the stick".

I'd adjust the position slightly to start with. Stand at roughly saddle level (a little further back than the shoulder) and about a meter away. Lift the rope so the nose is tipped a little towards you, then look at the hindquarters and swing the rope overhand towards the point at the top of his tail. As soon as he even thinks about moving his hindquarters away from you, (just rocking his weight over will do to start with) stop asking and stroke his hind leg. Repeat the process, and this time wait until he steps away - but as soon as the hind feet move - stop asking and stroke the hind leg. Repeat a few times until he's really light and has it fixed in his mind that an energy directed at his hindquarters means "move over". The you can go back to the stick, and it should be OK - just make sure you stop asking immediately he moves over.

Good luck!

 

[Alyth Long]

I would start in front of the horse and make a big semi circle towards his hip so the phases are quite obvious. Tapping the air, then the ground before connecting with his hip. It gives him plenty of warning, rather than starting so close to him.

 

[molly34]

Do you know his history?
There's a horse on yard with a history of abuse including beatings, and she sometimes reacts to people getting too close with the yard broom or walking past her with a long whip... maybe your boy has unpleasant associations?

Or maybe he just gets p*ssed off with it and has trained you to stop the game when he bites the stick

 

[gypsygold]

I used to have the same problem! Also, my horse is kind but only while we are doing things he 'wants' to do You are asking questions and he doesnt want or more likely know what to do so he becomes 'unkind' - luckily to the stick not you. He wants to dominate the stick and have it follow his ideas!

I basically kept going and do not stop when he bites the stick but do stop the second he offers the right behaviour - he has to disassociate the cessation of stick use with the biting of it. I also tried "ok you want to bite the stick - ok let me help" and actually encouraged it into his mouth more than he might of wanted when it was his idea.

I found doing this and specifically stopping as soon as right behaviour occured we got there. He just didnt want to do what I asked and was happy to tell me. He never bites the stick now He's a 'nice' horse but dominant. Dominant horses dont always or often appear to be nasty or agressive.

 

[hollywd]

Thanks for all the advice. I didn't think I was rewarding him for biting the stick, because I was immediately pushing (yo yo) him out of my space... I would think a brisk backing-up wouldn't be a reward?

I tried again last night, and used some of your suggestions. It went well, up until I was almost finished. I was watching him carefully the whole time, and gypsygold, I think you are right on the money about him dominating the stick.

I wanted him to circle me once or twice in each direction before we finished. I was using the rope only for this, not the stick. This horse used to test me when lunging (if we hadn't done it in awhile), so I wasn't surprised when I started to get attitude.

I watched carefully, and he went through all the phases - glaring at the rope, then ugly face and ears pinned, then swinging his head toward the rope, then trying to bite the rope.

In the meantime, every time I tried to step around him to get behind his drive line, the little bugger would do a neat hind-end disengage so he was always facing me... he is smart, and he knows I can't drive him out on a circle while he is facing me! Trust me when I say I wasn't asking for this maneuver, this was definitely a clever evasion on his part.

I finally did manage to get behind his drive line, and then he walked very calmly around, which was good.

But, I now realize this is all him testing me. Until I authoritatively show him I am more dominant than he, I think he will continue to do this (bite at the training tools sometimes and try to evade what I am asking).

So with training tools, I will keep on keeping on, unless he barges into my space, and then I am going to push him out before continuing. I really don't want him in my space while teeth are flying, that is unsafe. I could back him many steps so he is sure it isn't a reward for biting the stick.

As for the turning to face me evasion, I have to find an answer for that. At the moment, all I've been able to do when he's facing me is move him backwards or forwards.

 

[Harry Hobbes]

As for the turning to face me evasion, I have to find an answer for that. At the moment, all I've been able to do when he's facing me is move him backwards or forwards.

When he's facing you send his nose away.

His body will follow his nose, so send the nose away (left or right), and he'll be quartered to you; and you'll be behind his drive line.

Best regards,
Harry

 

[hollywd]

This is what I'm also having problems with... even if I send his nose away, he will move his hind end around so he still faces me... so in effect, he wins the battle because I have a very hard time moving him out away from me.

When he's being a bugger, I can only move him forwards or backwards because he'll just keep turning to face me.

 

[Harry Hobbes]

This is what I'm also having problems with... even if I send his nose away, he will move his hind end around so he still faces me.

And what do you do when he "...still faces" you?