Hitting a horse in the face..... Training????

Madaz_Maddy

Madaz_Maddy

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Mar 15, 2008
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Ok, before I start please dont jump on me :frown: . I am from no particular method of training and find most include basic common sense just wrapped up in different ways. I do find some methods worse but generally thats threw ignorence or the fact that they contradict or put themselves on a pedastall. I dont agree with the "god" like followings that seem to be happening and also get annoyed when ppl think they can read a book and carry out a method to the correct standard and the correct way.

Regardless of reasons for it or the method in which its being used how is hitting a horse in the face with "anything" acceptible???? I have, yes, smaked a horses nose when its taken a chunk out of me, think thats relativly fair, in the horsey world it would get much worse. But how is using a rope, metal clip or anything else to hit a horse in the face going to achieve anything. It doenst give any clear indication of what ** after just a hope that at some point the horse will carry out the correct move either threw luck, annoyence or fear?? If I hit my horse in the face with a metal clip my whole livery yard would jump on me for cruelty, and I would completly understand their reaction.

Sorry I really really dont get this, can anyone explain this to me???
 
Tis easy to explain actually,

You have a great big strong horse faced with a not so great big human.

So big brave human says 'I know - I will teach this big bold animal that I am its boss - I will crack it one in the face with whatever is handy' then great big strong horse will be my obedient servant for the rest of its life

Forward on a year or two - great big strong horse carted around from sale to dealer to sale to yet another dealer. Big strong horse now has a reputation as a 'nutter' and obviously isnt really worth feeding or worming so is also like a hat rack covered in lice.

If Big strong horse is lucky some idiot like me will come along and give him a home for life. If he isnt so lucky he will spend many hours, hot, starving and thirsty driving thousand of miles to a 'fattening factory' until he is deemed fat enough to kill.

simple really isnt it?:banghead: didnt Big strong horse have a lovely life?:poop:
 
I think I know what you your trying to say and I agree what is the problem with old fashion kindness and being firm. Instead of justifiable abuse. Whats the point in following an ideal when the action don't back up the cause.
 
I don't like it at all, but I will stick my neck out and say that a skilled horseman, with impeccable feel and timing can strike the horse on the head in the course of training, to make it move out of his space for example, without causing any apparenty fear or resentment. In the hands of anyone less skilled it's a disaster waiting to happen and for that reason I don't think it should be a part of anyone's training programme or handling routine.
 
Totally agree with Yann.

That said Rascal does get face contact. But its proving totally ineffective. He gets his nose shoved away twice if he nips or steals (yes, steals...LOL), and on the third time he gets banished to the naughty corner, loudly and firmly. He still doesnt give a rats ar$e so maybe I would be better smacking him one LOL (joke btw... not about to beat my snog monster LOL...just going to get some ADHD tables from vet for him LOL)
 
Yann said:
I don't like it at all, but I will stick my neck out and say that a skilled horseman, with impeccable feel and timing can strike the horse on the head in the course of training, to make it move out of his space for example, without causing any apparenty fear or resentment. In the hands of anyone less skilled it's a disaster waiting to happen and for that reason I don't think it should be a part of anyone's training programme or handling routine.
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I see what your saying but to use it to make a horse back out of your space is either repremand or disaplin when nothing else works. I mean when its used in the case of gettin a horse to back up/ go in a trailer or what ever. It seems more and more common I see ppl repeatidly hitting a horse in the face with no understanding from the horse as to what is required. And more rescently I have seen this to be apparently "normal" and "acceptable" in some forms of training yet frowned apon and seen as cruetly in others. When is everyone going to realise that this type of behaviour creates a negative problem for yrs to come. Yes they need rules and guidelines as do all animals. They need repremanding in the correct manor as to the misbehaviour occured, but I dont see how this kind of treatment can be TAUGHT as a method of TRAINING, like its a perfectly aceptable thing to do???? :stomp:
 
MM - I got the impression that Yann was saying it shouldnt be taught - its only acceptable when done by a suitably skilled person (such as pat parelli... sorry that was low :p... and a joke LOL)... but generally otherwise avoided, not appropriate unless you can repremand at the right fragment in time.

Not my opnion, but just a thought... surely it is just a varied use of pressure and release - for example moving into their space to back up - surely argued as more confrontational than being ten ft away and wiggling a rope...? Surely imposing body close to the horse is more likely to be intimidating and scary leading to "fearful" reactions to people...?
 
popularfurball said:
Not my opnion, but just a thought... surely it is just a varied use of pressure and release - for example moving into their space to back up - surely argued as more confrontational than being ten ft away and wiggling a rope...? Surely imposing body close to the horse is more likely to be intimidating and scary leading to "fearful" reactions to people...?
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As with most methods of training depends on the horse :biggrin: My mare would flip if I started wiggling a rope at her, however me walking towards her and saying back works fab, she only needed a few days on palm of hand on chest and "baack", she'll never forget it!! However like I say depends on the horse!!
 
I do the same - however sometimes shes polite and sometimes she is rude - that said backing up she does happily, its being moved over she swishes her tail at hehehehe.

On the other hand, same tactics with rascal... he is none the better. As bizarre and ill mannered as ever LOL (do love him though LOL) - tried clicker, he hasnt got the association skills or attenion span - the only way I can do it is go behind his bum, and literally push his bum out the way, or go to where I want him and call him (yes he thinks he is a dog....)
 
I thought I'd made it clear that I disagreed with it :) It certainly isn't necessary to teach a horse to back up or move out of your space by hitting it on the head. My two are very light on their feet most of the time, and the thing that really made a difference, especially with Rio, was to use clicker training.
 
I can think of no occasion when I would hit a horse on the head. I am more likely to give a slap on the neck than anything if appropriate to the horse if for example they tried to bite.

However training to back up, give personal space etc I only use voice and a pushing hand as a start and hopefully voice only once trained.

Strangest thing I ever saw was when we collected one of ours from the vets, mare hadn't been off our yard in 15 years and had travelled to vet sedated. Put headcollar on with rope over poll (home made controller) and cob walked on after a quick look. Person next to us was trying to load while standing at the top of the ramp facing their horse wiggling rope and waving stick at there horses head...I was tempted to 'assist' but talked out of it..noticed all the vet nurses were hiding as well.
 
Maybe i've had my head in the sand then as i don't know any training programmes that suggest hitting your horse in the face. It's been called zone 1 the delicate zone and from what i can recall is something you touch gently.

If a horse is in your space and coming at you, i've been taught to hit myself with a rope first, moving onto the direction of the horse to encourage them to back away. I'm refering to dangerous horses that would pin you up against a wall and simply knock you to the floor.

If you mean the clip under the chin that puts in a bump if the horse pushes through it, these can be changed to non clip types. Is this actually any worse than yanking a horse in the mouth and strapping it down with a flash, martinagale etc? No it's not as it will be from a non angry place with timing and enough feel. Not because the person has got angry and yanked on the mouth.

If there are any programmes that have a section called "How To Hit Your Horse In The Face" can someone find a copy of it? Even from on board the most i tap to correct is the shoulder not the head.
 
Newforest, the metal clip in the yoyo game is exactly what is being discussed here and you know it ;) If it isn't necessary why do you need to remove it from the official Parelli gear? Why do the instructions to swing your arm with maximum force in phase 4 inevitably end up with the clip bashing the horse in the face?

Someone might not be using it with emotion, but if their feel and timing is off they'll still make their horse headshy.
 
Yann said:
Newforest, the metal clip in the yoyo game is exactly what is being discussed here and you know it ;) If it isn't necessary why do you need to remove it from the official Parelli gear? Why do the instructions to swing your arm with maximum force in phase 4 inevitably end up with the clip bashing the horse in the face?

Someone might not be using it with emotion, but if their feel and timing is off they'll still make their horse headshy.
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I don't own any parelli gear, i've only got the cheaper versions, it's personal choice if you have a clip or not, i don't need one so i don't use it. A phase 4 should only rarely if ever be used, this is the problem with buying books and videos with no instructor to actually help you out. if your feel and timing is out you can confuse the horse and yourself and not get happening what you asked for.

I help out with starting 3 ponies, i have never used a phase 4 on any of them, i'm not really doing pnp but a mix of allsorts. If you offer lightness you will get a horse to respond to that lightness, i never rush either each horse can take his time, it's us humans that want a quick fix and response.

If i had a horse in front of me that suddenly shot forwards as if to run me over, i could move my feet and do a hindquarter yield, get flattened, or put in the bump you are refering to, which would say please back off out of my space thankyou. As i said it is rarely used.
 
Jasper and the stallion i work with get a sharp elbow in the nose if they try and bite but i'm not a fan of hitting in the head full stop, let alone as part of a "training" method.

The only time i could ever see myself hitting a horse in the head with an object (bucket, leadrope clip brush etc) is if my life was in danger. Certainly not to teach them to back up!
 
LOL at JW - I have hit Rascal round the face with a spade :eek: LOL. He appeared as I was throwing poo in barrow, caught mid fling - he momentarily looked as if to say oof what was that... oh well mam in here mam in here mam in here!!!!!!!!! LOL

Such a nut. No other neddy I know would be smakced with a shovel and not be bothered in the slightest :eek: didnt stop me feeling awful though lol
 
NF, I think there are lots of misapprehensions about phases of pressure. Phase 4 isn't just about being tough, it varies from horse to horse and I think the definition is something like 'whatever pressure is required for the horse not to want to go there again' or similar. A solid cob will have a very different looking phase 4 to a flightly arab, and I think that's where some of the problems come in.

Not going to phase 4 if you're following the methodology can cause problems, because you end up nagging and desensitising the horse. I gather Pat P himself goes up and down the pressure scales really quickly, which means he might only have to do it once or twice and the horse doesn't dare put a foot wrong after that. Contrast that with someone at home who doesn't have good timing and doesn't really fancy getting tough with their horse and it's not quite the same thing at all.

I'm all for people doing things their own way, and adapting set methods to suit them personally. I think it's the only way to go for any of us. The problem is if you want to progress and get your levels then you have to stick with the rulebook don't you?
 
I have seen someone using 'traditional' methods hitting a horse in the face with something a lot worse than a metal clip to get them to back up, there is good and bad in all so called 'methods' its personal choice if you use them but its the horse that always suffers.
 
hmmm.

perhaps talking about the purpose of the metal clip would be interesting here?

many horseman use a clip on their line s-- and many don't

the ones who do use it primarily for two reasons:
1. when you lift the rope, the clip weighs and slows down the movement of the rop between hand and horse -- ie it has a delaying effect on any yank or pull

2. it can give a clear phase 4 to a bargy horse who runs through the human and turns the rope from ineffective to effective


now obviously, whether your values fit with using the tool in these ways is totally up to you

as someone who has had to retrain a couple of dominant horses who have had the opportunity to learn that they CAN run over and through humans, I have found the lead ropes with clip to be useful. and yes, I reserve the right to use the bop on the chin with the clip as a reminder to the horse that they do NOT run through me.

When using this correctly, the clip "taps" the chin - the feel and sound remind the horse that I DO have tools in my toolkit and they choose not to run through me

I know I am working well when I only ever have to really use the clip ONCE -- after that the weight lifting on the rope is a sufficient reminder

Now one thing that I know influences this debate is when we look at basic values and mindsets with resepct to horses

many people here in the UK have a view that horses are sentient beings with rights -- rights to NOT be hit, to NOT be put under a lot of pressure and so on.

Many horsemen both here and abroad have a different view: They see the horses as motorbikes -- to be used however they wish and to be MADE to be obedient and punished when not

Many horsemen have a view that is somewhere in between: they see the horse as a being in its own right, deserving of dignity and respect -- BUT they also beleive that any pressure or force that they use on each other is ok for the human to use on a horse for training purposes.

this last group is the one that is often confusing for people in the UK who get into natural horsemanship as a result of their desire to be respectful of the horse as a being with rights....

this third group see nothing wrong with a clip hitting a horse's face if it is done to teach a horse to back up willingly. They DO see it being wrong if it SCARES The horse....
they see nothing wrong with hitting a horse with a stick or rope to encourage it to move more quickly or respond more snappily to their request -- they DO see it being wrong if it scares the horse or causes it to be scared of people




understanding these differences can help us as individuals decide what we can learn from each group -- and help us all become better horsemen according to our own values and beliefs

best

Cathy
 
newrider.com
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