help!!first horse`blues!

A

allthegearnoidea

New Member
Dec 16, 2006
251
0
0
57
Dont know if anyone can offer any advice i have bought my first horse at the age of 40 and im wondering if ive done the right thing.
Hes a 6/7 yr old bay cob (bigggg cob).
He was bought as a first horse confidence giver but these are my problems
stops dead still refuses to move forward at all, despite doing circles releasing legs on any movement forward ive tried everything, not so bad on hacks but will struggle to get past gate even with a person on the ground, he has actually got worse ive had him 8 weeks and have taken things slowly plodding round the indoor school - if he moves!! tried the outoor he moved as slow as a snail!!and then stopped
i had a natural horsemanship istructor give me lessons she gave me three and then gave up saying some horses were unschoolable she had a ropetwirling behind him touching him carrots in all corners etc etc still nothing.
i had a very good rider have a go on him she did get him to move but not without whipping the hell out of him he bucked and then cantered circles. I think hes got immune to whips and punishment he wont lunge and struggle to lead him as hes so strong and bolshy (after grass)please help should i get him reschooled if so were do i go??? who can i trust
im in a real dilema ive finally realised my dream and its proving a nightmare, i dont feel experienced enough to re school him myself, and if i do get firmer and more dominant with him he just seems to up his dominance back at me.
I think you would class him as very strong very very confident never spooks shies or gets nervous but likewise barges straight into everything and everybody.
help
jo
 
When your NH instructor came out, what sort of ground work did she do ? I've got aclear picture of him under saddle, and on the ground in terms of his manners - basically he's nice enough, but isn't really listening, is just as likely to pull you around if there's anything in it for him, or stand still to be tied and wait for more food, or whetever - is that a close enough picture ? But what is he like when you take him out, just in a halter, and ask him to move - forward, backward, left and right ?

With a big heavy cob like this, what tends to happen is, because he's so safe, he tends to get ridden and handled by people at the beginning of their horsemanship journey .. .and they tend ot not have grasped the importance of the 'release', so he's become more and more dulled to ... well, to everything ! You're going to have to press the reset button on him. Hopefully find something he's never done before, and be really really super quick with your release timing every time he gets something right.

It probably is going to take another encounter or two with an NH type person, I would suspect, but one who is prepared to put in the time on the ground, understands why the horse should only be asked for lateral movement and no forward movement for now, and is prepared to raise the pressure as high as it needs to go.
 
Totally agree with what Kate says, He sounds like a real character! I love cobs and there attitudes..its just finding the right buttons to press..

He needs a rocket up his ass by the sounds of it!! ... and is totally taking the mick o and being a ' lazy cob!' and a bugger!

Try some other intructors, defo dont give up on the one..try some recommendations, where are you in the UK perhaps some NR members have they know of.

I hope you work things out with him, perhaps a look at his feed may add some spark to him and add for some impulsion, its all about finding that right balance!
 
In the first instance I think you need to sort out the leading issues on the ground, because being able to move his feet rather than him moving yours is fundamental to how he views you. Sorting that will help all the other issues, because they're all related, but what he doesn't need is beating up to get a response out of him. Even the most stoic horse can be taught to respond to light cues, and I doubt he's untrainable, he just sounds switched off and its also possible that there be a physical cause contributing to the problem.

If you've not had him for long he'll also be testing the boundaries, that's normal. Bolshiness can often be a result of insecurity rather than over confidence, horses usually prefer someone else to be making the decisions for them.

What sort of NH trainer did you have out? Whereabouts are you?
 
Can anybody on your yard recommend a really good trainer / instructor? Do you have a teacher at the moment then? The NH instructor sounds like a bit of a waste of time, fancy giving up like that!!! There are lots of good ones out there I'm sure, fingers crossed you find one soon. I was lucky with our two - (got our first horses age 34 and didn't have much experience) as our old yard owner helped us a lot, and it was the kind of yard where people wanted to help you out if you were new to it all. I hope you get something sorted soon - good luck.
 
defo agree on ground work with him, Kai was as bolshy as they come when I got him, infact he was really quite dangerous ( cob also)

I had liturally gone back to basics with him leaving riding and my driving ambition for him behind.

Luckily it worked for him and now he is like a dope on a rope, More recently I reintroduced riding alougth I found his saddle didnt fit him so that was put on hild until now, I carried on long reining him round the rounds and also simply leading him out in hand.

He was terrible to lead, and would walk all over me, tail in air, snorting... and any resistance or pressure he simply went up :eek:

I have been working on him for approx 3 months and the difference is amazing, it has been trial and error in a few areas I have found the right feed balance for him, the right training methods and best of all the right horse in him ( I knew it was there somewhere)!

I guess the difference is I have known him since he was little and I knew his ex owner was letting him have his own way, and he was simply a field ornament.

I have always used the thought that if theres a problem, go back to the ground and assess all issues, which for me has always worked.. but of course all horses and people are different.

Have you ever had his back checked, I know maybe a cliche answer, however a horse can react in a lazy way- non impulsion to tack/pain/back problems in the same way a horse can become a handful.
 
I don't have anything contructive to add I'm afraid but just wanted to offer you some support. I bought my first horse just before Christmas (I'm in my mid 30's) and am still going through the good days/what have I done days :rolleyes:

The trouble is that I want that bond NOW :D and it is going to take as long as it takes before we get to that stage.

I have learnt to completely reassess what I want from Joy and count our progress in smaller ways.

Perhaps think about concentrating on something he is good at and forgetting about what you want him to be able to do and praising the heck out of him when he does it right. This way you both will be more relaxed and then you can consiser working on pushing the boundaries out a little at a time so that he isn't always being asked to do something he can't/won't do. :)

Please try to stay positive and relaxed and just enjoy your time with him and your confidence as an owner will increase. :)
 
thanx for support

Thankyou all for your advice and support,
The instructor i had just said it was natural horsemanship, i get the feeling his paces werent floaty enough for her!!
Anyway back to the drawing board i tried just leading him round the outdoor school tonight ,giving him loads of lead rein if he walked along nicely and small closer pulls if he stopped, seemed to work. I tried moving him touching sides and saying over he did it well but did make a face and attempt to bite.He isnt too bad to lead but will stop dead and look around sometimes,and wont be moved, if he sees grass he will move hell and earth to get to it and me!!Ive tried a nice boy controling headcollar and that seemed to work, so i might go back to using that. He does try to bite the lead rope when im leading him he will also have a go at biting the young girls that help me out aswell dont know why?The other thing he does is in the morning when i go to the door to put his headcollar on he swings his head about and makes out hes going to bite, i stop this by giving him a bite of a hay net He is only on grass and hay nothing elses although he does get loads and loads of hay overnight, i started giving him a low sugar meadow mix-just a couple of handfuls at night with water, but he became very bitey and mouthy so i stopped it i think he could be pepped up a bit with feed or grass but it also increases his bolshy rude side- cant win can you.
Oh by the way despite the faces like hes going to bite he never actually does - or hasnt yet - perhaphs im too fast for him.
Im thinking of starting parelli with him, any thoughts on that?Also do you think he needs more food or haylage? he did once get on a fat grass field and he turned into a wild bucking bronco-really!!
I think ill look for another instructor and see how it goes.I aint giving up that easy.
Thanx again everyone glad im not in this alone.
 
Last edited:
I think everyone goes through this with their first horse. Just keep at it and it WILL come good.

xx
 
Hi have you tried talking to the person you brought the horse from? Often these problems can be ironed out if you can sorce the cause if only horses spoke human!!!
 
Last edited:
I have spoken to the owner on previous occasion about him nibbling/attempting to bite all the time - she said it was probarly her fault as she gave him titbits all the time -
also she said something which i think is very important - she said dont let him have good grass/grazing as it doesnt suit him
i think that he is what is known as a good doer and even a small amount of lush grass- ie longer than 2 mm sends him a bit crazy.
people at the yard cant beleive that there is anything in the grass this time of year but i think cause its so mild the grass thinks its spring
not to worry when the big freeze comes on wednesday that will sort it out.
 
You have'nt had him very long - dont get stressed out about this!

We had one just like that - and it lasted six months! I really do think some horses take a very long time to settle in to a new home and get the feel of everything around them.

I would suggest you dont even try the schools for a while, get to know him, take him for walks, let him look around and chill out. Try to get someone to ride out with you and give him a lead - little and often!

As for the handling thing - ignore him - he sounds like he's being pushy and trying to see what he can get off with. Be firm, dont stand for any nastiness and stop trying to bribe him!! It does'nt work with kids and it doesnt work with horses!! He needs a little disicpline.

I think he sounds great!! Lots of character - feels like he's "working" you at the moment - dont let him near grass without a bridle to help you - you cnat control a horse in a headcollar!

Wish I had one that wont move in the school! Mine keeps bombing off with me!

Chill out and take your time!!
 
jo-stafford said:
The instructor i had just said it was natural horsemanship, i get the feeling scotch's paces werent floaty enough for her!!
Click to expand...
Sounds like you are better off without her then !

i tried just leading him round the outdoor school tonight ,giving him loads of lead rein if he walked along nicely and small closer pulls if he stopped, seemed to work. I tried moving him touching sides and saying over he did it well but did make a face and attempt to bite
Click to expand...
Good. The more of this you can do, the better. You're busy establishing your role as leader, building up trust, etc etc. Set yourself up for success - work from where you can easily enforce discipline - ie don't don't expect him to work hard for you when there's grass nearby. Instead, find yourself a bare patch to work - a school, the yard, or just a patch of driveway. Demand his undivided attention when he is with you. Being with you is an immense privilege, remember, he is honoured to be by your side. Keep him in the be-nice halter if it gives you the leverage you need in order to get his attention. Be very disciplined about it's use - be aware of when you are putting pressure on him, and when you are releasing. He'll learn from the release, and the release is most likely what has been missing from his 'training' for a while. if he has his attention on you, is quite, focussed, then make sure the line is slack and the halter is not exerting pressure on him. The quicker you can do this, the quicker you will have his respect. When his attention wanders, bump the leadline, just little short tugs, and stop as soon as he has two eyes on you (I'm talking about him facing you, you just standing facing him, observing where his attention is - a simple little exercise but very, very effective).

He does try to bite the lead rope when im leading him he will also have a go at biting the young girls that help me out aswell dont know why?
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter why, don't let him do it. One thing you can do if they're mouthy and lippy, is really go with that ... if he wants to play lip games, go right ahead and play them back. Grab his nose and really smoosh it about. If he wants to chew the lead rope, go ahead, stuff the leadrope in his mouth - pretend you love so much to put things in his mouth (it's easier to be honest with a stick - they go to grab the end of the stick and you keep the stick in their mouth, gently jiggling it about til they're heartliy sick of the game and just want to spit it out).

One thing's for sure when you're getting to know a horse, make sure you always reward him for the behaviour you want to encourage, and never reward him for bad behaviour, even if it makes things easier in the short term. It will come back to bite you otherwise.

The other thing he does is in the morning when i go to the door to put his headcollar on he swings his head about and makes out hes going to bite, i stop this by giving him a bite of a hay net
Click to expand...

Yeah - don't do that !

Oh by the way despite the faces like hes going to bite he never actually does - or hasnt yet - perhaphs im too fast for him.
Click to expand...

If you're on the ball, another thing you can do, is become 'all elbows'. He needs to be respectful of your space. When you move, it is his job to ensure you have the space you need to work. If he's constantly in your space, which it sounds like he is if he's close enough to pretend to bite ... then what you can do is get very twitchy, so that if he doesn't keep his wits about him he'll find he collides with your elbow. He's a big horse, so it might be more effective if occasionally your elbow runs into his nose - not hard, and not a slap - but just a little pop on the nose if he's really not paying attention to you, can wake him up.


Im thinking of starting parelli with him, any thoughts on that?.
Click to expand...

All the NH type of trainers are basically the same (apart from John Lyons). it just depends on the type of packaging you enjoy and find useful. Parelli tends to be a monumentally expensively packaged version. You can get the information much, much more cheaply. However, some people love it, and it really does give you a very easy to follow, step-by-step program, which can be very useful to keep you moving along and stop you getting stuck. Have a look at materials from some others before you commit.

ETA - do have a look at clicker training. Since he's food orientated, it might work really well to get him inspired with the idea of figuring out what he must do to please you. The first thing you would have to teach him, would be to 'look away'. Once you've established that every time he 'looks away' he gets a treat, you'll find a lot of this mugging, biting, lipping and pushing will just go away. I don't think clicker training is the easiest method to master, but in your case it might be very effective because until you've sorted out this mugging behaviour you won't be able to get him to focus anything else !
 
Last edited:
Thanks again everyone for all the advice, i took a look at parelli websites, its strange but on the u.s one you get parts 1 and 2 for about 300 dollars but on the english one you get only part 1 and equipment for about 230 ish pounds?
I will have to wait a bit its too soon after xmas to pay out that sort of money, my husband is only just getting over the shock of the monthly livery bills.Does anyone now were i might get details of first few parts of parelli course part 1 maybe the 7 games online so i could may be making a start and that would keep me focused and positive so at least im doing something and not making it up as i go along, also any one got any views on other natural horsemanship methods and were i could find out about them.I have looked on t'internet but theres millions and im not sure which are good and which are not.
Also i have heard it said horses can get a bit depressed/ miserable or fed up doing parelli anyone else heard that?
thanks jo
 
I don't have any real advise, but I can tell you a funny story!

My uncle was a farmer all his life, in his youth his dad used cart horses on the farm and my uncle was ofen in charge of a hay waggon and 'oss. The farm was, and still is a big family affair.

One day one of the uncles came home with a "bargain" from the market. A big "half legged" 'oss, not a shire or Clydie, but a big 15hh heavy cobb, they wanted him to pull a tipping cart for harvesting turnips.

Soon turned out why the horse was such a bargain, he wouldn't pull on grass or deep going, he'd go along the road all day, the minute he touched grass and he had to work he slammed the brakes on.

Anyway after a day of trying to get the horse to work sense the uncle lost it, gave the horse one last chance to stop being stubborn and get moving.....so he lit a bonfire under it.

it never jibbed again. :D
 
The Parelli system is just about learning to communicate with the horse. It's nothing new, it's just you gain respect by moving their feet. Parelli is neat because it is very specific, you get very specific exercises to get you started, get out there, moving his feet and thereby building the bond, and gaining the trust.

It IS only packaging though. I have been through the level 1, level 2 stuff. It's fine. It gives you about $20-$40 worth of information. Youcan get all the information for free by trawling the internet. Start with Kate Farmer's Harmony project.

Also, before you invest that type of money, do yourself a favour and buy, borrow, read a couple of books. Parelli has one ... it's ok, if you like that sort of thing... it's cheap enough. It's called Horse.Man.Ship. If nothing else, it will help you decide if you can get on with his peculiarly kitsch catchphrase way of talking. I'd also recommend you read Clinton Anderson's 'Establishing Respect and Control for the English and Western RIder'.

Parelli is still big here in the US, Clinton Anderson is probably second at the moment. John Lyons is getting to be obscure, Monty Roberts is just a joke here these days. I understand you all don't get much exposure to CA, which is a pity because he is very much more straightforward and easy to understand than any of the others, and in contrast to all the others, his book actually tells you what you need to do, and shows you, step-by-step, with clear pictures. In complete contrast to I think every other book ever written on horse training ... he'll point out what you're looking for in each individual horse, and how to guage his reaction. I understand from reading a lot of UK posters, that a lot of the time 'the book' doesn't take into account individual horse personalities. It's not like that.

Anyways, here's a quote from Pat Parelli
Excellence with horses and a partnership for life is what we all are striving for and rarely get because normal horsemanship gets in the way. I've identified 103 ingredients in Natural Horse-Man-Ship, and these concepts are the basis of this text. I list them in a particular order: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. Added together, they equal 31. There are two sets of these numbers (1, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10). 31 + 31 = 62. Add the 41"Ps" as mentioned above. 31 + 31+ 41 = 103. (
Click to expand...

:confused:

Ok, that one quote is particularly confusing, but the general tone is kind of like that. Here's another typical one ...

Pat Parelli proudly presents his programs and the proclamation that prior and proper preparation prevents P-poor performance particularly if polite and passive persistence is practiced in the proper position. This perspective takes patience, from process to product, from principle to purpose. The promise that Pat plans to prove is that practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect, and it is peculiar how prey animals perceive people as predators and not partners.
Click to expand...

There is a lot in there, if you can dig around. To me, it's easier if someone just comes out and says it rather than trying to be clever and cutesy all the time.

Parelli goes on to describe at great length why you must buy his tools, and put up your bridle in a particular way so that others will know that you have Parelli 'savvy'.

About the same place in the book ( the intro bit, where they set out what to expect from the book and the 'method' ) Clinton Anderson is saying ..
A horse's brain has two sections: one is for thinking and the other controls reacting. The reacting part is big. The thinking part is very small. The reacting section tells the horse thhat whenever anything might be a a predator, "Run!" The problem is, after the running is over, horses never start thinking. They usually start eating.

We want to change that We want to teach our horses to use the thinking side of their brains before the reacting side.... With training, the reacting part gets smaller and smaller, but you will never get rid of it completely ... You must always be aware of its existence
Click to expand...

ok, now I don't know whether that's 'true' whether there are physically two parts of his brain or whatever, but it certainly works to think of the horse in that way, to use that as a 'model' for how to develop his mind so as to be suitable for the job we have in mind for him.

Then CA goes on to describe how to make your own version of his tools, and then gets on with showing what to do.

It is all the same stuff, so just go ahead and find one of these guys that you get on with and can learn from. Parelli is not always the clearest.
 
Last edited:
Hi Jo!

If it's any consolation - you're not alone! THis happens to many first time owners, (and sometimes 2nd and 3rd time owners!) and with a bit of determination and patience it can be overcome!

There are basically 2 things you need to work on. Firstly, establishing your personal space and making sure you can move him out of it. Secondly, moving his feet.

There are exercises on my website for establishing space - look particularly at the "herd hierarchy" section, and "the waltz".

Alongside this, start working on individual feet. By this I mean focussing on moving just one foot and rewarding just that. Don't ask for much at a time - one step is enough - but it has to be willing and light. Start on his left, at about 45% to the shoulder, and draw on the leadrope until he moves his left fore towards you. It might only be half a step - but reward it with lots of stroking. I'd avoid foot treats as it sounds as though he's already a bit "grabby" in that department. Repeat this and work on it until he starts getting lighter and more willing. This usually happens pretty quickly. Then move to the other side and do the right foot with the same approach.

Then use the hindquarters yield described on my website to move the hind feet - just one step. Do this on both sides. Then go to the backing up exercises. When you have all this soft and light, you'll find forwards has magically got much easier! Then building up more steps and more energy - but as soon as he starts to get heavy and sluggish again, go back to one step and get that responsive.

He's not being "bad" - he just thinks he is the better herd leader and is taking control of the space and movement. He maybe senses your uncertainty, and is in his own way responding to it - you're not sure, so we'll take everything slowly. Show him in a very small and focussed way that you want him to move his feet - and soon all the feet and the whole horse will be moving wherever you like at the speed you like. But spend LOTS of time on those very first steps, and make sure you reward every try!

Good luck!
 
If it is any more of a consolation I have owned my cob for 2 1/2 yrs and recently moved yards. HE has started to do this to me. He is also biting. Swinging his head round and really going for the bite. He hasnt done this in a ll the time I have owned him. But I have upped my herd leader position and he doesnt like it. :rolleyes: Get some good support in and work your way through the tests that your new horse is putting you through. Good Luck..:)
 
What a wee monster :D

i think if you keep riding him in the school he will get worse to be honest.

I know these things dont happen overnight and as the naughty behaviour gets worse our confidence shrinks. But try to keep yourself up and confident that you will get through this with him. :D

I think you have to make a list of all possible angles as to why he is doing this. The go through them and work on them.

As for trying to take a bite out of you, id take a very sharp bristly brush with you and the minute he goes for you, let him feel the brush on his mouth rather than your arm.

there is a good book called something along the lines of 101 ways to a better horse or something like that. It gives normal straight forward advice on how to deal with everything you have mentioned. bites, leading issues, riding and its only about £9.99. You dont have to do the NH stuff first or pay a lot of money either.
the advice given is straight forward no nonsense dealing with the problem.

Good luck xx

eta - think the book might actually be called the horse owners problem solver. i will check tonight and edit again xx
 
Last edited:
WOW an NH instructer did and said that!!!!! I can hardly beileve it!! Their are a few bad apples I guess with everything but I do Natural Horsemanship and I'm kinda training to be an Instructer but I cant beileve some people!! Advice above all sounds good though...... good luck ;)
 
newrider.com
Top Bottom
Back