Grrrrrr .....

notpoodle

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Jul 16, 2003
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Angel's shoes came off back in January. Made it through the spring fine, she is doing great :)

BUT .... I am tiring of the fact that (over the last 3 visits) every time the farrier's been, she needs to be booted up for at least a week and takes another week or so to be back where she was before the farrier came out.


I'd already 'banned' him from doing anything to her soles, but he somehow still manages to nip a bit too much off :redface: It's quite frustrating as it feels we have to start again every six weeks! def not diet related as she is always sound as a pound up until farrier has been ... then she gets 'careful' (not lame, def still rideable, not overly footsore, but wary enough to stick her boots on as its VERY flinty around here).

farrier is a complete gem, does a lot of remedial work, saved several 'death row' lami ponies on the yard, is open to new things etc. (and he does a fab job on my other pony who has never been shod in the first place).

what do i do? try and talk to him again (when I mentioned this before he said he didn't understand why this happened after his trim ...)? start using friend's barefoot trimmer on Angel and keep farrier for Appley (now this WILL pee off the farrier - I do not want to pee him off!)? ask him not to use the nippers but only the rasp?

Julia
x
 
Ooooo that is a tough one. I'm keeping my farrier even though we've gone barefoot and totally respect his length of training and experience and don't really want to try to 'teach my grandmother to suck eggs' (stupid saying but you get the idea) However having done lots of research into barefoot there may be some slight differences in terms of amount of roll etc and it's a bit awkward really! I def would have another chat and suggest things you would like to try - it would be a shame to lose them if you trust them but if they just won't listen...
 
i'll ask him to put the nippers away ... i know exactly what you mean when you say you dont want to 'teach grandmother to suck eggs'! angel isn't a particularly complex pony when it comes to hooves eg. they're in decent shape, not oddly formed, not boxy etc.

annoyingly, another horse on the yard who was trimmed the same day is also having issues now (too much frog and hoof trimmed off it seems) ....
 
This sounds like your farrier is the one causing the issue TBH,although I understand you not wanting to upset him,but sounds like he's taking too much off simple as that.

If you don't want to change to a trimmer (personally I did and have never regretted the decision for a second,and never had a footy horse after she's been!! but understand that there are also many good reasons to keep hold of a good farrier),then think you're going to have to tell him to put the nippers away and just rasp.

Playing devils advocate here though,do you really want to pay for a service that can only be half provided and that really you could probably do yourself most of the time if it's just a minimal rasp?? Sorry don't mean to be as critical as it sounds but seems kind of odd to keep hold of someone that you can't actually rely on to the job you want done.

How are the rennies BTW,still fabby??:wink:
 
Thanks for the reassurance :)

the Rennies are worth their weight in gold :D I am so glad I splashed out and went through all the hassle of getting them imported - they're a Godsend because they're so easy to use and fit her nicely :D

I'll speak to the farrier ... i really don't want to upset him as I'd like to keep on using him for Appley ... plus, it's handy to only have to take time off work for one appointment.

will also have a chat to my friend who touches up her barefoot cob herself with a rasp as advised by her trimmer.

Julia
x
 
Yes I too would invest in a rasp, in summer Sil has hers done on a weekly/fortnightly basis to stop it flaring.

My trimmer does use nippers, but doesn't make them lame with it.
 
the Rennies are worth their weight in gold :D I am so glad I splashed out and went through all the hassle of getting them imported - they're a Godsend because they're so easy to use and fit her nicely :D

I'll speak to the farrier ... i really don't want to upset him as I'd like to keep on using him for Appley ... plus, it's handy to only have to take time off work for one appointment.

will also have a chat to my friend who touches up her barefoot cob herself with a rasp as advised by her trimmer.

Julia
x

The rennies are great aren't they:biggrin:,I never regret having splashed out on them either and pretty sure I could never get on as well with any other type of boot

Completely understand not wanting to upset the farrier,good ones are very handy to know,just think there must be a problem with what he's doing (or not doing??) if the same problem keeps cropping up.

Hope you can sort it out without upsetting anyone:smile:

If you happy to have a go yourself then I think getting a rasp is a great idea.My trimmer is always nagging me to have a bash (even gave me a rasp lol),but I'm just not totally comfortable doing it myself and truth be known I don't like doing it,is too much like hard work and kills my back,would rather pay the trimmer to come more often:redface:


My trimmer does use nippers, but doesn't make them lame with it.

Same,my trimmer uses nippers every time,but have never had any horse she has done be lame or even a bit sore that I recall,and she has done various different horses for me over the years.
 
It's a difficult one this, I thought you might like my perspective as a professional trimmer. I will try to be as honest and objective as possible and keep my comments general rather than specific/personal to this particular case.

First things first...

The horse should not be sore as as a direct consequence of the trim. If it is something has been done wrong.

Every now and them this does happen because we are all human and make mistakes, every horse is an individual and some are just more sensitive than others and you have to learn each one and sometimes adjust the trim to suit.

If this does happen you absolutely should and must talk to the farrier/trimmer because if you don't they will not know that there is a problem and so will not be able to do anything about it.

If when you ask/talk to them they get stroppy you need to make your own mind up about what that means...

Any good professional will not mind having the discussion and will appreciate the feedback, nobody wants to go around making horses sore especially unwittingly, and it is an easy thing to 'fix'.

People do need to understand that when you are trimming a horse say every six weeks there is a temptation (I hold my hand up) to trim it right up to the edge (of making it sore) because you know that the trim has to last for six weeks... (I trim my own horses every two weeks so obviously I don't have to take as much off but that is not viable for most people).

If you do trim too much off whilst yes it is a mistake, it really isn't the end of the world. You could equate it to taking a little too much off your finger nails, sure it's going to hurt like a bugger for a couple of days but you know you'll be ok. That's not to say you don't make a mental note not to take as much off next time (as long as you know about it, so speak to the farrier).

When it comes to suggesting he doesn't use the nippers... I'd steer clear of that tbh. Nothing wrong with mentioning that the horse was sore last time (and tell him for how many days) and asking him to take a little less off this time but don't be telling how to do it (that's his business). Some farriers/trimmers can be very (just as?) accurate with nippers as with a file and you don't know what's going on in his toolbox... maybe his rasp is blunt and he doesn't have a new one in the van, or maybe he's saving it for the next horse (might be in pain or difficult, so he will need to be quick and accurate). There are different nippers, different files, different knives etc and their useage is usually beyond the ken of the amateur and there is sometimes an overlap or maybe he has a physical problem... for instance I had a couple of days last week when I used the nippers (and I carry three different types with me which I use in different situations) more than I normally would because for some reason my left hand was cramping up when I held the rasp. The trim the horses got was exactly the same, the nippers just made it more comfortable for me to achieve. One client asked me why I was using the nippers (I never had done so on her horse before) and of course I was happy to explain and actually quite pleased that she was interested enough in what I was doing to have noticed.

If you ask the man why he is doing something, he should be happy to explain but that is very different to telling him not to do something if you see what I mean, that might just get his back up!

Anyway judge him on the result and not how he achieves it and don't be afraid to give him feedback if he is a genuine professional he will appreciate it.

Oh, one last thing, people trimming their own horses feet... I tend not to encourage this as if I don't know exactly what they have done it can make it difficult to judge what best to do when I'm trimming and... unless the person knows what they are doing they can make a right mess of it. The exception to this is just tidying things up if bits break off (but this shouldn't happen much if the horse is being trimmed regularly) or just rolling the toes a little as long as the person knows what they are doing and to not go too far. If you are going to do this ask your farrier for a rasp. I keep a few blunt (for my purposes) rasps to give out to people as I get through a few a week, I assume most other trimmers do too.
Hope this helps.
 
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thanks JaimeP - I was hoping you'd respond :happy:

I spoke to him the first time it happened and he said he wouldn't touch the sole any more (that time round he'd been taking bits off the soles). We then agreed he'd take off 'as little as humanly possible', but it looks like that's not quite enough either. I'll def speak to him again next time he comes round as I suspect it is the temptation you have described (eg 'making it last' for 6 weeks).

oddly, my other pony is never sore (and happily does 10 miles on flinty tracks on the Downs), but then she is young, has never been shod and her diet has been just right since birth eg she does not have a history or 'issues' like my 19 year old pony.

never easy, is it?

julia
x
 
thanks JaimeP - I was hoping you'd respond :happy:

Gosh :redface:


my other pony is never sore

The truth is that whilst most (99%?) horses arn't sore as a result of a trim but every now and then this happens (and any trimmer/farrier that says it has never happened to them is either ignoring the truth or isn't getting proper feedback).

Of course I'm assuming that the farrier is trotting the horse up before and after working on it and has made sure that the horse is sound before he starts work or that there is no other reason for the horse being, or going sore afterwards (as this too can happen in some instances).
 
no, he doesnt trot up. but then, when he comes, he is doing about 10 horses and has a very big client list eg. time is of the essence. (this could be another reason for the whole dilemma).
 
Ah...

So how does he know, if the horse is lame before he starts work, how the horse moves, how it lands it's feet, how his trim has effected things, ... if it's lame as a result of the trim... etc...

I don't know about anybody else but I don't like to rush things or be under too much time pressure when I'm working with horses, IME that's when things go wrong.

Out of interest, I allow a full hour for each and every horse I work on. Sure I could just turn up and trim their feet in 20 minutes but frankly that would not allow me anywhere near enough time to do a proper job (and I'm not slow or neither do I waste time) or allow for any unpredictibilities (like a hot air balloon landing in the field just the other day, that was interesting!).

People (farriers often) sometimes ask me why I charge more (twice even) than a farrier would for a trim...and it is often a question that crops up on the internet. I explain that I don't just trim horses; I keep them sound and invite them to come and watch me work...
 
Knowing absolutely nothing about it, but still going to put my two penneth in having read a book on barefoot!!!

I would have thought the job of a farrier and the job of a barefoot trimmer are completely different. The farrier trims the horses feet to put shoes on, and the barefoot trimmer trims them to continue barefoot.

If it was me, I would change.
 
Knowing absolutely nothing about it, but still going to put my two penneth in having read a book on barefoot!!!

I would have thought the job of a farrier and the job of a barefoot trimmer are completely different. The farrier trims the horses feet to put shoes on, and the barefoot trimmer trims them to continue barefoot.

If it was me, I would change.

Absolute crap, sorry!

My farrier knows my ponies, knows the work (or lack of) each does, and trims differently for each. He trims to set the foot up for what's expected of it in the following weeks.

I'd never expect my farrier or a barefoot trimmer to do a standard trim for each horse. Farriers are professionals. You get good and bad just as you do with trimmers.

If my farrier did exactly the same on each if my ponies, neither would right.
 
Sorry SJP, Id have to disagree too. Wikipaedia's first line in 'farrier' is;

A farrier is a specialist in equine hoof care, including the trimming and balancing of horses' hooves and the placing of shoes on their hooves.

And I think thats exactly what they ought to be doing. Not all of them do but I beleive mine does!
 
Oh, one last thing, people trimming their own horses feet... I tend not to encourage this as if I don't know exactly what they have done it can make it difficult to judge what best to do when I'm trimming and... unless the person knows what they are doing they can make a right mess of it.

Just as I was one of the ones who mentioned it,thought should elaborate.I was kind of surprised when my trimmer suggested me trimming them in between her visits,but she expalined that she only meant for me to rasp around the edges (and she showed me exactly how) and I had explicit instructions what not to touch and not to do etc.In my case it was as I had hoofboots that in the summer when the hoof grew quickly could get tight to put on in between trims so she thought the benefits outweighed the risks,I am guessing for others the reasons could vary??
Like you said it's not always ideal to trim less often so perhaps an owner just keeping on top of things in between visits is sometimes better for the horse/pony and worth the risks of owners having a go??

She also gave me her old slightly blunt rasp so guessing the amount of damage I could have done was minimal lol.I never did it anyway BTW,I paid her to come out more often in summer instead:redface::tongue:


Sorry SJP, Id have to disagree too. Wikipaedia's first line in 'farrier' is;

A farrier is a specialist in equine hoof care, including the trimming and balancing of horses' hooves and the placing of shoes on their hooves.
A farrier is a specialist in equine hoof care, including the trimming and balancing of horses' hooves and the placing of shoes on their hooves.

And I think thats exactly what they ought to be doing. Not all of them do but I beleive mine does!

In defence of sjp she does make a *generally* good point,obviously there are differences in farriers same as there are in trimmers,but I know the farrier I used to have had no interest in barefoot,his idea of a trim was to take off the height which is basically a 'pasture trim'.He could either do this or nail a set of shoes on,and I know many other farriers who are the same.I also know some farriers who go the extra mile to accomodate barefoot and adapt their trims to suit,not many though I have to be honest.

This might well be changing as more and more people demand good trims as they are barefoot,training for farriers no doubt these days deals far more with barefoot for a working animal,but I think the basic essence of training for a farrier deals with preparing the foot for and fitting a shoe,where as training for trimmers deals solely with trimming suitable to the activities of the horse.

I found a huge difference when I changed to a trimmer,totally different in every way.

I accept of course that some farriers are great for trimming and I even know of one who works really closely with my trimmer (in fact he mainly does trims now rather than shoes),but by and large I take the same view as sjp,if I want shoes I use a farrier,if I want a trim I use a trimmer:wink:

Shutting up now as this wasn't supposed to be a breafoot vs shod debate:redface:
 
I have found a great deal of difference between farriers in their shoeing when my horse was shod. I'm sure I'd find a great deal of difference in the trim if I had various trimmers do my ponies too.

I will not have somebody who is set on one thing and has a closed mind to everything else. Joys first farrier ONLY did natural balance, her second was a superb farrier but would not trim working horses as it was his view shoes were best for a riding horse. My current farrier has won the Royal Welsh a number of times at donkey trimming, writes and researches and specialises in slow motion gait analysis. Theres a new breed of farrier coming through now although the old school ones i have met were more insistent on having shoes pulled over winter if the horse wasn't being worked. He has another apprentice with him ATM and it was very interesting listing to the talk the apprentice got when my 2 were trimmed.

I remember when I first read Peter Ramey as despite there being a lot of assertions of trimmers doing a 'performance' trim rather than a 'pasture' trim I couldn't find any details to be able to tell for myself and only had my farriers word ( and Joy's performance) to go on as to whether the trim is right. The book took each area of the foot in turn and discussed it. I watched my farrier at work the next time and lo, as well as maintaining a well balanced foot I couldn't see where he'd varied from what I'd been reading.

I think the whole farrier vs barefoot trimmer debate is a farce put about by trimming organisation years back to strengthen their business. In my view it's more about finding the best professional to do the job and in my view that's somebody with more skills than trimming a foot.

One thing I do agree with though is that the foot is a product of so much more than the trim. A more holistic approach and getting boots and diet right is just as vital and that is something my farrier didn't do. I think farriers could do with being more proactive on these subjects as it simply isn't taught to them and that's a major omission in my view.
 
sorry to drag this thread up again, but not sure what to doooooo :unsure: Poneh was a little footsie again after her last trim (not massively, but I have become rather 'finetuned' to her after years of LGL-watch! I am sure some people who don't know her well might have said there was nothing majorly wrong with her. but, I know what she was like the day before the trim!). farrier out again today, I told him she wasn't 100% after last time. he said he didn't know what else to do as he'd taken off as little as possible last time and maybe she did need the shoes back?

I watched him closely today and he did take the knife to her sole (not much I'm sure but it seems odd that I am trying to get her to grow a nice thick sole, only for it to be 'thinned out'?) ... since i'd already explained what happened previously, I didnt want to start interfering again ... we'll see what she's like tomorrow :unsure:

what to do? I dont really want to lose the farrier because he does excellent remedial work, is reliable, great with the ponies and does a great job on appley's boxy little feet. and I can't really have a trimmer for angel AND the farrier for appley because I cant take that much time off work (that is if I find a new job, ahem! if i dont I cant afford a trimmer anyways ....).

someone assure me im not going mad and taking a knife to the sole (even if lightly!) is not such a good idea for a relatively new barefoot pony?

Julia
x

ps: dont want to shoe her again now - I know she is better off without, I got her through summer fine (plenty of roadwork etc!), but its frustrating having to start again after each trim!
 
TBH I really don't know for sure about the trimming the sole thing,if it helps though my trimmer has never taken anything off the sole of any of my horses she has trimmed.
Now that could be simply that it has never been necessary,have to say I have never thought they needed doing,but not sure it's something she does unless there is a very good reason,AFAIK she prefers to leave well alone.

Like I said not something I've ever given much thought to,and am guessing that might not be why angel is sore anyway,but it doesn't seem like she should need this doing??

I really think you should bite the bullet and start looking into trimming her yourself,you know her best and could do her as and when which might help break this cycle.
 
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