Right, you are defending this :
Fetlock chains, and built-up pads with minimal 'weight' to them.
Fetlock chains, and built-up pads with minimal 'weight' to them.
Gaited Horses and Soring (From Saddleseat Thread)
- Thread starter Shadowlark
- Start date
But what the heck does that tell you about the discipline itself that you have to completely alter your horses way of going through shoeing and chaining in order to have a chance to succesfully compete?
Storm- Built ups compete in their own division. Flat shods compete in theirs. There is a division called trail pleasure which looks for no action whatsoever for horses that go like that natrually. Some horses have big front ends all on their own, some don't.
But why are you defending it? That's what I'm not understanding here.. Why do you draw the line at chemicals.....but promote the use of chains and build ups?
Because chemicals inflict pain, chains and build ups do not. Of the two built ups are definitely the more questionable, but used correctly they aren't inhumane. Chains are a training device. It's like me saying....oh... forgive the lousy analogy... why do you draw the line at a kimberwicke but always use a running martingale. Sorry folks, best I could think of.
would you like to wear chains and platforms and then we can persuade you to lift you feet a bit more?
i used to train for long walks with scuba ankle weights on. Trust me - it hurts your ankles and knees, and i am doing it to myself. they were neoprene cushioned - you are justifying chunks of steel with no padding and saying they dont hurt. as you are not a horse, HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY DONT HURT?
i used to train for long walks with scuba ankle weights on. Trust me - it hurts your ankles and knees, and i am doing it to myself. they were neoprene cushioned - you are justifying chunks of steel with no padding and saying they dont hurt. as you are not a horse, HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY DONT HURT?
hmmm But this "minority" is big business and has a huge following.
http://web.commercialappeal.com/06/sparks/sparks.html
V
vimto92
Guest
Exactly. Totally agree, how do we know if they hurt or not.... the horse may not be groaning, but it could still be in pain!
It is a bit extreme, why bother with that kind of high footed action anyway, whats wrong with natural footed action, thats beautiful. What the horse must be going through mentally when its performing these high footed movements... we don't know... maybe it wants to walk normally again but just can't due to strains and things forced upon its feet.
You really have to see, and get to know these horses. It's shameful. Have a look at that horrid vid - it's a promotional video for the City of Memphis, I think - so this is something we're actively promoting here. Look at the size of the 'hooves' you see... The horse's actual hoof is a very small part of that. It's tipped down so it's pointing at the ground, heels raised high, strapped to that huge 'pad' underneath. It's awful. It's truly an awful thing, and I'm surrounded by people who think that's right. you have no idea, until you come here, what people will do. Neen I think was quite gobsmacked at some of the things she saw. We're god's chosen people here in the South, you see, deep bible belt and there's a strong element here that is convinced that god put the animlas here for our own use as we see fit. And they do.
Now you all draw the line as and where you feel it should be. Me, I'm drawing my line way before chains, even training ones, and way before pads. And before 12 inch shanks on a curb bit for that matter.
As for stacked heels being fine as long as they're put on before the class and then removed after - well I have to say I've never seen that done. The walkers in training that I know are wearing those pads full time 24/7. They're also stalled 24/7. Many TWH barns that I know are just that - a barn, with an aisle to ride in. No turnout, no paddocks, nothing. Many walkers are born in a stall and will die in a stall never having seen a field. This is the fate of the noble horse that was bred to provide a smooth ride all day for the owners of the plantations so they could check over their crops and their slaves.
Darn Good thing we've got God on our side else I suspect there'd be hell to pay.
Now you all draw the line as and where you feel it should be. Me, I'm drawing my line way before chains, even training ones, and way before pads. And before 12 inch shanks on a curb bit for that matter.
As for stacked heels being fine as long as they're put on before the class and then removed after - well I have to say I've never seen that done. The walkers in training that I know are wearing those pads full time 24/7. They're also stalled 24/7. Many TWH barns that I know are just that - a barn, with an aisle to ride in. No turnout, no paddocks, nothing. Many walkers are born in a stall and will die in a stall never having seen a field. This is the fate of the noble horse that was bred to provide a smooth ride all day for the owners of the plantations so they could check over their crops and their slaves.
Darn Good thing we've got God on our side else I suspect there'd be hell to pay.
Katie has been through this debate a million and one times before. From what I (and us from before) have gathered she is lucky in that she belongs to one of the only or very few training barns that do not inflict such damage on their horses. While its done, its done responsibly and the welfare of the horse is always taken into consideration.
Altering horses in this manner is not too far off from other ways we alter horses to suit our needs. I pass many a plow horse in my area whose tails have been chopped off due to rigging issues. Be careful to whom and how you point your fingers
I have witnessed a Morgan show barn in upstate NY in which the pads and chains were left on 24/7. Downright shame and the horses looked miserable. It really had/has me appauled at this human race of ours
Altering horses in this manner is not too far off from other ways we alter horses to suit our needs. I pass many a plow horse in my area whose tails have been chopped off due to rigging issues. Be careful to whom and how you point your fingers
I have witnessed a Morgan show barn in upstate NY in which the pads and chains were left on 24/7. Downright shame and the horses looked miserable. It really had/has me appauled at this human race of ours
Thank you Tootsie for being the one person here not to make assumptions based on facts you don't have. I appreciate that very much.
I don't necessarily "approve" of forcing horses to jump over fences or perform airs above the ground, but I'm not automatically condemning those practices because I simply don't know enough about them. Some of you are way too far away and have no firsthand knowledge of what I am dealing with to have any idea. All you know is what Kate Wooten is telling you. Some of it is correct, some isn't. I would be more than happy to answer any rational questions on a separate thread.
I don't necessarily "approve" of forcing horses to jump over fences or perform airs above the ground, but I'm not automatically condemning those practices because I simply don't know enough about them. Some of you are way too far away and have no firsthand knowledge of what I am dealing with to have any idea. All you know is what Kate Wooten is telling you. Some of it is correct, some isn't. I would be more than happy to answer any rational questions on a separate thread.
Thank you Tootsie for being the one person here not to make assumptions based on facts you don't have. I appreciate that very much.
I don't necessarily "approve" of forcing horses to jump over fences or perform airs above the ground, but I'm not automatically condemning those practices because I simply don't know enough about them. Some of you are way too far away and have no firsthand knowledge of what I am dealing with to have any idea. All you know is what Kate Wooten is telling you. Some of it is correct, some isn't. I would be more than happy to answer any rational questions on a separate thread.
With all due respect....I do not need Kate Wooten or any other person to tell me what I think or what I beleive. How rude of you to single out one person from this thread and basically accuse her of trying to manipulate other people's opinions. Are you of the opinion that we cannot make up our own minds about a given subject?
I am an almost 50 year old woman who has seen a lot in my time, I can make up my own mind thank you.
Thanks, but been there done that got the T-shirt. I used to show Morgans I quit that world due to my disgust of what was being done far TOO universaly.
If you want to show a gait.. show a gait - I don't want to see the artificial garbage. A lot of things are traditional.. that doesn't make them right. With entire societies now geared towards sound flat shod healthy animals there IS choice now.
A gaited horse is a beautiful thing, a joy to ride and be around.
I find it interesting you have Decided Kate is the wicked witch here.. when Jules and I are both obviously equaly as put off by the practice.
If you want to show a gait.. show a gait - I don't want to see the artificial garbage. A lot of things are traditional.. that doesn't make them right. With entire societies now geared towards sound flat shod healthy animals there IS choice now.
A gaited horse is a beautiful thing, a joy to ride and be around.
I find it interesting you have Decided Kate is the wicked witch here.. when Jules and I are both obviously equaly as put off by the practice.
Thank you Tootsie for being the one person here not to make assumptions based on facts you don't have. I appreciate that very much.
I don't necessarily "approve" of forcing horses to jump over fences or perform airs above the ground, but I'm not automatically condemning those practices because I simply don't know enough about them. Some of you are way too far away and have no firsthand knowledge of what I am dealing with to have any idea. All you know is what Kate Wooten is telling you. Some of it is correct, some isn't. I would be more than happy to answer any rational questions on a separate thread.
The problem however is that neither jumping or dressage accepts and encourages practices which completely alter the way the horse was meant to move. Nor does it condone training techniques which have been PROVEN to harm, or potentionally harm the horse. even dressage and its rolkur would never even DREAM of going this far.
I can make up my own mind thank you. We have two saddlebred barns down here, and I know exactly what they do to them. Don't even get me started on the absolute lack of turnout for fear that their precious feet will get damaged
Poor Nayds I don't think she knew what a can of worms she was opening. As I said gaited horses aren't seen here and most of this is new to us and utterly horrendous at that. So I'm sure there was a certain innocence in saying isn't this wrong or strange or not right. Sad to say I've heard all this before, and gingering at least happens here too.
I feel that somethings are totally unacceptable, some are not and with some it requires careful observation and research to decide. It is necessary to look at the big picture and understand the whys and hows and so on before being too dogmatic about anything. Where ever animals are involved in any thing that brings prestige or money someone sooner or latter will do something that they shouldn't and the animal suffers silently as they always do. Even so without doubt it is necessary to step back and look at everything lest you throw the baby out with the bath water.
I personally think soring(is that right?) is undeniably cruel. The long hooves bother me too, but I can see how that might be done with the minimum of harm. Chains I just don't know enough to judge, I'm not even sure how much 6oz is! I only think in grams, kilos and quite ironically in feet and inches. I don't know that I like the idea but I don't think I know enough about it to have the right to say completely bluntly it is wrong.
Actually what I do want to know is how is a standardbreds pace different from the gaits of the gaited breeds? Are the foot falls different? The speed appears to be at least. I can see some of the gaits are different but some look like variations on the pace. I'd love to know it looks interesting.
I feel that somethings are totally unacceptable, some are not and with some it requires careful observation and research to decide. It is necessary to look at the big picture and understand the whys and hows and so on before being too dogmatic about anything. Where ever animals are involved in any thing that brings prestige or money someone sooner or latter will do something that they shouldn't and the animal suffers silently as they always do. Even so without doubt it is necessary to step back and look at everything lest you throw the baby out with the bath water.
I personally think soring(is that right?) is undeniably cruel. The long hooves bother me too, but I can see how that might be done with the minimum of harm. Chains I just don't know enough to judge, I'm not even sure how much 6oz is! I only think in grams, kilos and quite ironically in feet and inches.
I don't know that I like the idea but I don't think I know enough about it to have the right to say completely bluntly it is wrong. Actually what I do want to know is how is a standardbreds pace different from the gaits of the gaited breeds? Are the foot falls different? The speed appears to be at least. I can see some of the gaits are different but some look like variations on the pace. I'd love to know it looks interesting.
Thank you Tootsie for being the one person here not to make assumptions based on facts you don't have. I appreciate that very much.
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Perhaps if we had the facts that Tootsie does....we'd feel differently about the whole practise. I'm always looking to learn. What are the facts we are unaware of ? or should I check with Kate Wooten about that?
I've been totally and forever put off TWH and Morgans because of seeing what kate, Julia, and SL are talking about. I've ridden a TWH before that was just treated as a normal horse...nice, smooth ride and a lovely horse. I don't like it, though, I'd rather have a 'normal' walk/trot/canter horse myself
On the other hand, the Morgan who'd never in its life been outside until it came to our barn was crazy, always saw the whites of his eyes, never calm. That's no life for a horse. I've met others, too (I've also met Morgans that are lovely animals, but I'm still put off!). I get highly offended when anyone tells me my little one looks like a Morgan
They used to put kick chains on one of the mares in the barn to stop her kicking. I know they hurt her because they caused scarping of her skin and hair. That's a sensitive area! Not the same thing, I know, but still, wouldn't chains banging on a sensitive area hurt? I believe so. People can say it doesn't hurt, but how do they know for sure unless they can change bodies with the horse
I don't know all by a long shot...heck, I don't even know a LITTLE when it comes to horses compared to what a lot of others know, but I've done quite a bit of research. Not everyone does this stuff, but too many do. I think the gaits caused look ugly and unnatural. I always have, and THAT'S why I did so much research because I wanted to learn WHY they looked like that.
ETA: I respect both Katie_85 and Tootsie. I just took exception to the fact that Kate W was singled out and made to look like...I'm not sure of the word, but made to look like she was being conniving or something. Kate has my utmost respect as well, and she didn't deserve that. No one on here is going just by what Kate (or Julia, or anyone else) is saying. I just wanted to point that out!
On the other hand, the Morgan who'd never in its life been outside until it came to our barn was crazy, always saw the whites of his eyes, never calm. That's no life for a horse. I've met others, too (I've also met Morgans that are lovely animals, but I'm still put off!). I get highly offended when anyone tells me my little one looks like a Morgan
They used to put kick chains on one of the mares in the barn to stop her kicking. I know they hurt her because they caused scarping of her skin and hair. That's a sensitive area! Not the same thing, I know, but still, wouldn't chains banging on a sensitive area hurt? I believe so. People can say it doesn't hurt, but how do they know for sure unless they can change bodies with the horse
I don't know all by a long shot...heck, I don't even know a LITTLE when it comes to horses compared to what a lot of others know, but I've done quite a bit of research. Not everyone does this stuff, but too many do. I think the gaits caused look ugly and unnatural. I always have, and THAT'S why I did so much research because I wanted to learn WHY they looked like that.
ETA: I respect both Katie_85 and Tootsie. I just took exception to the fact that Kate W was singled out and made to look like...I'm not sure of the word, but made to look like she was being conniving or something. Kate has my utmost respect as well, and she didn't deserve that. No one on here is going just by what Kate (or Julia, or anyone else) is saying. I just wanted to point that out!
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I wouldn't know any facts, obviously, so there's precious little point checking with me I'm just going around inventing stuff and photoshopping pictures about this that and the other. It's all in my head. Sometimes I go to my neighbours' barn and hallucinate 12 TWHs and an enormous chestnut saddlebred. Who'd have thought ?
Personally, I blame Julia Gulia for inventing that whole TWH video. Darn, she faked that one real good.
Seriously ... Call me on the facts ! What rumours am I spreading that are not true ?
Honestly Katie, I don't know why you take it so personally. You know darn well that soring takes place and if you're not doing it then ... guess what ... we're not talking about you ! We're talking about the people that do the soring ! It's not rocket science, is it ?
Of course, I personally, also think the light chains, and the built-ups and the unbalanced seat with weight over the loins, and the simple desire to show a wild-eyed uncalm tense 'flashy' horse is cruel too ... but surely even you can admit that people are entitled to draw their own lines for what's 'reasonable' ?
Here's a whole article I conjured up in my warped imagination ..
http://www.nashvilleistalking.com/2006/08/29/stop-the-soring
ooh look and another ..
http://www.walkinonranch.com/1999Celebration.html
(that one's kinda scary)
I'm just going around inventing stuff and photoshopping pictures about this that and the other. It's all in my head. Sometimes I go to my neighbours' barn and hallucinate 12 TWHs and an enormous chestnut saddlebred. Who'd have thought ? Personally, I blame Julia Gulia for inventing that whole TWH video. Darn, she faked that one real good.
Seriously ... Call me on the facts ! What rumours am I spreading that are not true ?
Honestly Katie, I don't know why you take it so personally. You know darn well that soring takes place and if you're not doing it then ... guess what ... we're not talking about you ! We're talking about the people that do the soring ! It's not rocket science, is it ?
Of course, I personally, also think the light chains, and the built-ups and the unbalanced seat with weight over the loins, and the simple desire to show a wild-eyed uncalm tense 'flashy' horse is cruel too ... but surely even you can admit that people are entitled to draw their own lines for what's 'reasonable' ?
Here's a whole article I conjured up in my warped imagination ..
http://www.nashvilleistalking.com/2006/08/29/stop-the-soring
ooh look and another ..
http://www.walkinonranch.com/1999Celebration.html
(that one's kinda scary)
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