Further bitting dilema- long!

HairyCob

HairyCob

Has anyone seen my mind?
Mar 18, 2002
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Hi everyone!

Appologies for a long post but I am desperate and I wonder if anyone can help....?

As some of you know I have a 6yo cobx who is typical of a cob in that 90% of the time he is calm and lovely, if not the most elegant creature, but the other 10% of the time he is a nightmare- extremely stubborn and very strong!

Recently I have been having a few problems- firstly he began to bolt on hacks- towards home usually, so I changed his bit from a happy mouth full cheek straight bar to a happy mouth mullen mouth pelham- two reins and elastic curb. This seemed to help with the brakes issue and once or twice he even softened a little
:D

After about three months, of blissful hacking and no problems (apart from my inability to sort the reins out at times!) he lost his steering! Not all the time, just when I asked him to go somewhere he didn't want to! He is bright, and knows that certain turns on hacks indicate a longer ride! Anyway, he would refuse to turn, spinning in the opposite direction and resulting in long (gentle) battles of wills, and although I never gave in until he went the way I wanted him to, it got to be a daily occurence.

So, another bit change, this time to a full cheek french link snaffle- again, for about six weeks we seemed to be doing ok- no softening or outline to speak of, but full control on a light rein.

Just in the last week or so, the steering issue has re-presented itself, although not so badly, and then on Saturday, it all went belly up.
As I asked him to turn left at a junction, he decided he was going right- and went- at a canter. Although he responded to my frantic leg yeilding and stayed nicely tucked into the side of the road, he completely ignored the bit, wouldn't slow, wouldn't turn, and cantered along the road right back to home.

Thank god no harm was done to him, anyone else or me, but it was incredibly scary to be that out of control and it has shaken my confidence hugely.

Does anyone have any suggestions? He has a thick tounge and fairly deep mouth and doesn't particularly like the traditional nutcracker action snaffles or metal bits generally!

Sadly my financial situation at present dictates where I keep him (i'm a student so it won't be forever!) and we only have hacking at our disposal- no where to do any schooling, though we do some on hacks.

I have thought about sending him away for some schooling, but don't really want to do this as I like to overcome problems with him- I rescued him as a 3yo who had been barely backed at a gypsy fair and feel we have come a long way together.

To be honest, yesterday was enough to make me think seriously about selling him, if only for a moment or two! So now I am ready to try anything anyone feels will help!

Thanks for taking the time to read and (hopefully!) reply!

H.C's Mum

P.S. Have had his back and teeth checked!
 
Gosh what a tyrant, he sounds like one of those horses where you always need to be one step in front of him.
Do you hack out alone or in company as this might help. At one stage my mother had a clydesdale that would take itself off into gateways so I used to ride my horse along side and slightly in front to prevent it doing that. Thus we managed to avoid the problem rather than fix it.
I also think groundwork might help your horse and getting him to go where you want. I am reading an interesting book at the moment called 'Unlock Your Horse's Talent in 20 mins A Day' by richard Maxwell. He says in the case of a nappy horse that nappiness often develops through a need to dominate even if the horse is perfect in every other sense. He also says the ridden problem is an effect of the dominance , not a cause, and it will improve as the horse generally becomes more submissive.
He recommends groundwork which is all explained in the book - might be worth getting the book from a library. The book is well illustrated and easy to read and based at the ordinary rider who does not have access to round pens etc.We are going to work through it with my daughters horse which is very talented but thinks she know it all.
The other thing you could try if you don't want to go down that road is things like going the opposite way to which you are planning to turn and then backtracking a few minutes later to where you do want to go. This might help keep him thinking a bit more. Also can you do things like doing a small series of circles or figure eights before you get to a turn off and then try and incorporate the turn into one of the circles. Or maybe the same thing with serpentines. Can you also incorporate transitions and lots of changes of bends before you get to these trouble spots to keep him more on the aids and listening.
Good luck.:)
 
Thanks for your quick reply Ipsa!

To answer questions..... I do occasionaly hack in company, and generally he is as good as gold, although he has been known to bolt and take the whole ride with him!:eek:

I generally hack alone, mainly because no one else at my current yard rides much, and when they do, it isn't at times I can make! If I waited to ride out in company all the time, I would probably only get to ride about once a month!!

That book sounds great- I'll pop off to amazon in a minute to see if I can get it!

I do some 'schooling' whilst hacking- half halts, figures of eight in the road when it is safe, transitions, leg yields etc, and most of the time this works, but when he gets an idea and decides to go... there really is no stopping him. I have access to a beach that I could do schooling on... if only I could get the bugger to set foot on it! He won't have sand at any price! Not even led- and we have had some holy battles over it! Maybe I could do some more in hand work and incorporate getting him over his fear of the beach at the same time!

I will try the going in the opposite direction and then turning back idea- It had occured to me to try this, but I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not- can't remember for the life of me why I thought it might not be now- but it is late and I have a couple of pints of real ale on board!;)

Thanks again for your reply, it has given me lots to think about- and a book to buy!!

H.C.'s Mum!
 
Hi C
God...scary! When I first ever rode ML out, I had a similar experience but in her case it was excitement. She completely ignored the snaffle which is why I went back to basics and started all that ground work with her.

She is a very dominant mare, and although we had some really hairy (no pun intended!) moments in the early days (ie her charging at me, nipping, turning her butt to my face threatningly, barging thru me) lots of patience and persistence did the trick. We went on like this for many weeks, because she just persisted and persisted and I just had to work thru it. What I found with her is

(a) she didnt see me as her leader so why should she obey? So I had to convince her I was the leader and be really vigilant about enforcing it
(b) her youth - her being a naughty teenager (may also be the case with HC???)
(c) she was persistent in the hope that I'd give in. There were times when I spent 1.5 hours in the arena trying to out-persist her.

There are times when she tries it on again but I know now how to respond to convince her otherwise! So we quickly get around it.

I know you dont have an arena, but you could use your field and a long longe line to do some ground work. I have a longe line if you'd like to use it.

If you want to get together I can show you some of the basic stuff I did with ML to help change her attitude!

I dont think the problem is the bit, I think its that he doesnt see any reason to obey your request. So changing the bit isnt going to make him obey and if you make the bit more severe he might actually start to resent it. He isnt being naughty, he just doesnt see any good reason to do as you ask and he knows he can get around it by scaring the living daylights out of you. You need to change his attitude and give him a reason to obey.

I'm not saying ML is perfect because she definately AINT. Just the other day we had more of her tantrums! But those moments get fewer and fewer and just occasionally we seem to be on the same wavelength :D

Anyway I hope that helps.
M
 
Hi Hairy Cob

Did you go the the demo that Heather did in Bristol RDA a few months ago? I sat next to someone who I'm sure said she was 'HairyCob' on New Rider - so HI if thats you!

I can't offer any more advice really than the others already have. If you have anywhere - even a field that you can make a little smaller using electric fencing so you can work HC from the ground - do try Richard Maxwell stuff - or Kelly Marks 'Perfect Manners - How to behave so your Horse does to' - I have both and prefer Kellys book but they apply similar methods.

It sounds as though HC takes a few weeks to get used to one particlular bit - and then starts playing up. Just a thought, but now that you have your own bit bank (LOL), why not chop and change more frequently?

I have a nappy TB who will play up when out on his own, so I can sympathise with you - and a friend of mine cantered down a steep hill and about 1/4 mile along a (fortunately) quiet road before he managed to get the Clydesdale he had on loan back under control - very scary - so sympathy and understanding all around!

Let us know how it goes and what you decide to do!:D :rolleyes:
 
Is there any way to predict the high speed depart ? When he takes off, have you tried just using one rein to turn, or anchoring one and turn with the other ? (ie fix one hand by his wither, so it acts like a side rein). Does he ignore all such tactics ?

It does sound a bit like he wants to be in charge and make the decisions - only you can know whether this is simple high spirits, or something physical going on (kind of tough to tell that by internet !).

But you need to be able to negotiate - and getting tanked down the road is not a negotiation, its a monologue.

I would suggest you try leading him past the problem points - but that relies on knowing its going to happen as its not too great an idea to leap off mid canter and try and stay on your feet and get control !

As suggested by others, the right ground work will help to encourage him to see you as boss.

How thick are the bits you are using ? If he has a fleshy mouth, perhaps the mullen mouth pelham is still a bit thick for him ? My mum's Fell pony only really settled in a copper roller bit - one of the ones with flat copper and steel rollers alternately. Theoretically too 'strong' for him but it was the only bit he settled and was not strong in, so in reality it was 'milder' in action than the bits we tried before. (At the age of sixteen he now just has a thin D-ring snaffle, without rollers).
 
Okay; when he really wants to, he ignores your bit cues. So either he doesn't know or doesn't care ;) that what he's doing is inappropriate.

If he doesn't care, that's a dominance issue.

If he doesn't *know*... I find that sometimes horses respond to our voices more than we would give them credit for. It might help to noisily lose your temper at him when he tanks off--not really getting upset, and definitely not screeching, but a very commanding "AAAAAP!" "I don't THINK so" "Behave yourself!" to back up your rein cues.
 
Ok gal & all, if he doesnt want to, what should she do? Asking also for my personal benefit. I work very hard at keeping my horse in line and do ALOT of ground work. But, he still "doesnt want to" under saddle and Im not too sure how someone would fix something like that when they've already done so much ground work and done it with success..... just on the ground :confused:
 
the challenge in this case is how do you mirror the situation - out on a hack and him objecting to a particular route - on the ground ?

It takes some work to find out what the underlying problem is. eg my mare was fine except a bit of a panic-aholic. When I did ground work with her, I noticed she was not keen on confined spaces so I did the squeeze game with her. I've also done work with her (combination of friendly and squeeze I spose) getting her used to lines/ropes around her legs.

She's still not panic free - despite having lived in the next door field to a whole load of cows, when they moved field they suddenly became very scary again !

I think HC has two challenges - one to sort out the behaviour (to stop it happening in the first place), and the other to come up with a more satisfactory bitting strategy (so there is some control/safety if it does). You should not need to keep swapping bits (IMHO).

Getting a horse to do something they have set their mind against - depends a lot on the type of horse. I can lead my mare through stuff, or back her through it. But if we just try and face up to it she is too strong willed. So I also need to find a side way round the problem.

If HC is not getting any warning before the beastie tanks off, it somewhat reduced the tactics you can try !
 
CVB
This might sound cruel to some but bear with me....I spent countless hours training ML from the ground and was 100% sure understood what was being asked.

When on board she sometimes would just set her head against the halter so I carried a big stick and waved it in front of her nose until she obeyed my hand. Usually it was when I was asking her to turn left or right. On one occasion I actually gave her a smack with the stick and immediately rewarded her when she did as she was asked.

The way I viewed it was, she understood me but she can be extremely stubborn. If I always threaten but never make good on the threats when she disobeyed, then her behaviour would have gone from bad to worse in every respect. So I took the decision to smack her once and I've not had to do it again.

These days when she decides stubborn is fun, I wave the stick in front of her nose and she behaves again.
 
OH THANK THE HEAVENS!!!!!!! Im not alone! Horsey bird, I love you!

Yes! That is my point! On the ground Bonfire is 100% predictable. I have worked through problems on the ground but once Im in the saddle again, it all goes out the window. I had him CONSISTENTLY giving to the bit from the ground both at halt and at walk. Then thinking I was safe on board again, I went slowly and asked the same way I did from the ground but he ignored me and was back to ripping the reins out of my hand. So extrememly frustrating!

So, now I think I have a plan. And, you've reinforced it. Next time he tries to tank off and not turn, I will slap him aside his head with the rein. A bit of a wake up call I hope.

You have given me a light at the end of the tunnel. Sounds like you had the same problem and now youre past it. I was begining to get disheartened!
 
Sorry, got caught in the moment :p I've never actually met a horse life Bonfire. I describe him as being difficult and Im so happy to hear that ground work didnt work for you either! :D
 
well eventually it did work, but it took about 4-5 months of hard slog, blood, sweat, tears and frustration to come out the other side of everything. There were times when I wondered if we'd ever get anywhere, but now I can safely ride her out on roads in a bitless halter and to me, that makes it all worthwhile. (subject to the insurance debacle being sorted out of course....)

Now when she gets stubborn its relatively easy to convince her that my way is best. I guess its just a learning curve - you learn what makes your horse tick and figure out a way around it.

But yes in the end the ground work definitely did work; without it we wouldnt be where we are today although we're still not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Its work in progress but we're moving forward in baby steps!
 
Hi everyone! Thanks for your replies!

General update is that I have decided no more riding until H.C. is back on track!
So.... going back to basics, won't be changing his bit, except possibly back to the pelham, and will be doing lots and lots of groundwork with him! My friend at the yard who has similar problems (worse really!) with her horse and I are going to work together to try to sort them both out- one at a time of course! Our goal is to be able to hack out together safely next spring- something we haven't been able to do for.... um...:eek: well a very long time!

HorseyBird-
Just to give you a frame of reference, I was asking him to turn left out of the lane opposite and just up towards the fields from the brideway that goes up to the golf course, so we could go up to the golf course- he didn't want to go there! So he cantered from there, past the quarry, through the narrow (yikes!) bit and back past the lay-by where I park to the field!:eek:
I have spoken to K about a 'ground work area' and it is in the pipeline... so we are going back to basics, me with himself and her with her mare who she also has 'dominance' issues with! If we have any problems, I'll take you up on your offer of help- thankyou for that!:D
As for ML not being perfect.... she is a darn sight closer to perfect than P- even if she did try to double barrel him the first time they met!:p ;)

Sarah B- Hi! Yes, that was me at Heather's demo! It must be nearly a year ago now, surely! Time flies! I thougt you were more local to Bristol than your avatar says- have you moved?
I have ordered the Richard Maxwell book that Ipsa reccomended, so we are going to try that first, but I will bear in mind the Kelly Marks one too! Thanks for your reccomendations!

CVB- There is so little warning of a high speed departure, that it is as much as I can do not to go out the back door due to the g-force!!!:rolleyes: ;) Unfortunately he ignores every tactic I have tried to get him to stop- including sawing (didn't want to but had to try something) and chucking myself off! Actually, that stopped him a bit quicker, but only cause he couldn't open the gate that was in the way of 'home' I think!!
H.C. will lead through/round/past anything, and doesn't even attempt to bolt or choose the direction- but he did try to do both when I first had him. I overcame it by having him on a long lunge, wearing gloves and holding on so hard that he had to stop or he'd be unbalanced and fall over- in otherwords I let him know who was in charge I guess, so I think the ridden problem is a dominance one- hence the return to groundwork!

Galadriel- Sometimes, if I get just enough warning, he will respond to the 'Oi! No you don't you bad horse!' approach! He also responds to 'over' 'back' 'turn around for the gate' 'pick it up' (for picking out feet) 'knees please' (for stretching his legs forward after girthing) and, ahem, 'drop it' (for sheath cleaning!!:eek:)
I think if I go back to groundwork and work on his dominance issues along with reinforcing the voice aids for 'stop' we may get somewhere!:D

Tootsie- Looks like CVB and HorseyBird have answered that one! Glad they have been able to give you some light at the end of the tunnel! Good luck!

Thanks again for all your replies folks... will keep you updated on the mud monster!:D
 
Hi Hanze,

No I don't keep him IN Bristol- I imagine the road work would be too much for us both to handle!! I keep him about 20 miles outside Bristol on the North Somerset coast.
 
Hi HC

I have not moved - I just commute a long long way on the M4 every day from where I live in Oxfordshire to Abbeywood on the outskirts of Bristol!! It's a shame you are the other side of Bristol!!

heather is going to the British Equine Event and will be doing a couple of arena demonstrations and the EE stand will have the simulator on it, so when she is not in the arean she will be doing the simulator sessions! Are you intending to go along to BEE?

I have Richard Maxwells book and it is very good - I just find KMs exercises and explanations suit me and my beastie better!

:D :D
 
HI Sarah!

That is some commute!:eek:

I am still thinking about the equine event- it is a long way and clashes with my friend's birthday- i did try to persuade her that it would be a great day out for her birthday, but she doesn't really want to go!:( She wants to try western riding instead:rolleyes:
I have to confess, the main reason I wanted to go was to see Heather and try to get a go on the equisimulator ;) !

Will keep working on my friend........:D but at the end of the day it is her birthday, and we always do whatever we fancy on our birthdays together- shame mine is in february when there is never anything like that going on!!:D
 
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