Fheonix - comments on position please

annareeves0

annareeves0

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Dec 18, 2007
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Bournemouth, Dorset
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I have to say it's so different from my trec I wasn't sure the first day, jury still out yesterday - moved it back a little so it was more level as was feeling tipped forward and did a proper hack today and decided I love it! Once you get trotting or sitting to canter - that memory foam is great. I have a cossetted bottom! I am starting to feel more secure in it but boy did my hips ache after sitting 'properly' for a couple of hours!
 
Have you bought it, or are you just trying it out, Anna?

I'm no expert, but it looks to me as if it may be a bit far forward - it seems to be covering the line of her shoulder muscle. Also, on the first pic it looks as if it's higher in the front, but that could be because of the way she's standing or the angle of the pic - and I don't know if they're supposed to be level anyway ... It looks wonderfully comfy, though!
 
I would say it looks ok where it's placed, it looks slightly low in the pommel in teh first pic, but if you get a good fingers clearance I would leave it how it is, if you move it back any more it will drop even more at the front hitting the wither and potentially causing a problem, you could add more padding but it would make you feel further off her back and could make it laterally unstable which you don't want. The placement of it sits the girth straps in her girth groove and it doesn;t look up her neck so you may be ok with it if you have enough whither clearance. :)
 
Great that you are enjoying your new saddle. It sounds like you have got to grips with it quite quickly :D Don't worry the aches and pains should go away soon and your riding can only improve from sitting correctly and at least your bum should be nice and comfy :p

I think it could do with going back slightly more...

Not sure about the numnah?

From the EE Website:

What type of numnah or saddle cloth would you recommend?

A16. If using a numnah rather than a saddle cloth, make sure that it is large enough to fit so that the numnah has around an inch at least showing all round the saddle, without any binding seams coming directly underneath the saddle. This could encourage the saddle, with a less than balanced rider, to slip and rub, especially across the back under the cantle region.

The Fhoenix should be always used with a so-called ‘high wither’ cut saddle cloth, such as the excellent Mattes range. All saddle cloths and numnahs should be designed in this way, conforming to the shape of the saddle arch, thereby not pulling across the wither, and creating a pressure point. The high cut also assists with lateral stability, being cut to fit up into the front arch, rather than straight across.

With wide flat backed horses, overweight ones, such as the horse to the right, and those with mature, correctly muscled backs, no padding is necessary. Use only a high wither saddle cloth.

For those with a small amount of atrophy, just needing an extra padding boost, our Backsaver pad,made from the same visco elastic foam as the Fhoenix seat, is ideal, used on top of the Mattes cloth between cloth and saddle.
 
Also thought it looked a tad far forward, knee roll just runs of edge of shoulder. I cant see pommell properly in pics, not helped by viewing on mobile sorry! Could you take some from the front and maybe without haf as suggested? Looks mega comfy.... Wants!
 
Thanks for the input guys.

I have bought the saddle off Ebay. I am confident I can get my money back if it doesnt work out but suspect this may be my 'forever' saddle - if I look after it I would hope to get years of use. The leather is so gorgeous it would be a crime to not look after it!

I didnt take pics today but I think I did move it just a fraction back today and it felt better. I tried it without the knee rolls (which bless her the seller threw in and Im very glad she did) and didnt like it at all without as a couple of sharp stops nearly had me straight off the front!

Was interesting that having gone from a 'duvet' to a 'proper saddle' when people have been talking about saddle 'waists' I had no idea what they were talking about but today, I thought yep, thats it underneath me!

I had read the info about the recommended saddle pads but dont have a normal numnah (sold a load of stuff recently :rolleyes:) so working with what I have. Can see the issue of the Haf without any shims but to be honest its well worn anyway and some of the sympanova lining is worn and rubbed off. If I can get 5 mins to get to the tack shop I might treat myself (again, like this wasnt enough of a treat!) The pad was pulled well up into the gullet so wasnt causing any pressure points.

I am really happy with the clearance - even over the wither I can get a finger comfortably between the saddle and pad and there was a nice clear sweat free line along her spine. Interestingly as we walked home today she stretched quite a lot - head to floor a few times and also straight forward pushing her nose forward (which she doesnt normally do) We had some really nice relaxed canters today after a couple of weeks of sillyness so have to conclude its comfy for her too.

I should have taken a photo (but I didnt) as today she was much sweatier and there was a patch just behind each shoulder, just forward of where my inner thigh would sit, that was relatively sweat free???? Not sure what this might signify????

Overall Im very happy. I feel like I have a quality product that is protective of us both and will remember to do some stretching before I go out tomorrow! Ive really loved the libra trec but have always stressed about it not being protective enough for long distances - with this I wouldnt hesitate to start putting in some endurance training miles :D I think the trec was great for the purpose I needed it for but have now 'moved on'.

One more question - any saddle I have used to date I have always done the front and back girth straps up to the same hole - on this saddle it really feels like the back strap should be done up one tighter - if they are both the same the back one is loose enough to slide a couple of fingers under the leather strap (from the saddle) rather than being snug. Is this OK or should they both be done up evenly?
 
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If you are aiming to do endurance work or at least a lot of trot work I would keep the HAF with some decent inserts or another treeless pad under the saddle, I did a fair few miles and endurance rides on my ex racer with my Fhoenix with an equitex pad underneath and it just gave that little bit more support for us, especially if you are going to be doing a lot of trot work and/or are not so light in your stirrups.
I would do the girth up on uneven straps if that is what she is happy with, it's probably because she has a bit of a belly, my lad has the exact same problem.
Non sweat marks can either mean too much pressure or no pressure, if your girl likes it I would keep with the set up you have and do a few more rides, check her back after every ride (you should anyway but check for any lumps bumps or tender areas) and check for any change in behaviors like moving a little when mounting, or moving slightly when girthed, your horse is the best judge of what they like and what they don't like, sometimes a saddle that shouldn't work (too far forward, girth straps not straight etc) are the most comfortable for the horse, most of the time it pays to listen to them more than having the saddle in the perfect place, or the girth straps perfectly aligned.
 
Or sometimes girth straps stretched or are made uneven to compensate for tummies. The two girth bickles should be level, regardless of what holes was what i was taught :)
 
Using a pad with inserts should give extra protection and not effect the use of the saddle.

If you could get a higher wither cut pad that would be better (I have found the HAF quite low cut over the withers), as it wouldn't put as much pressure on the withers (the HAF actually gives better clearance and shape with thicker inserts but you don't want too much more thickness with a fhoenix on a round horse).
The fhoenix saddles are made for more gentle hacking and dressage/schooling, if you are going to be doing a lot of work I would use a decent insert pad and ride more from your thighs in trot (ie not relying on the stirrups).
 
No_Angel said:
The fhoenix saddles are made for more gentle hacking and dressage/schooling, if you are going to be doing a lot of work I would use a decent insert pad and ride more from your thighs in trot (ie not relying on the stirrups).
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Don't really agree with the above. After all treeless saddles, including the Fheonix are popular with endurance riding, and I know of some people who showjump and event at intermediate level in them as well as GP dressage.

Weight on the stirrups is distributed across the saddle with webbing so the normal problems with this on some treeless saddles is not as much of a problem as you would get on some. And when you think about it, where is the pressure on tree'd gp and jumping saddles? across the front arch on the withers and how much that weight is distributed across the tree is debatable. I do agree with you though that weight should be distributed on between thighs and feet when riding, but that would be the same whether on a treeless or tree'd saddle.

Don't know if the OP has got the copy of the booklet that would have come with the saddle if she had bought it new? if not, here is a link to it.

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/booklet.htm
 
Have to say I do find, even on a pony with no withers, the haf pad front is low - I have no problem with the actual pad, its the front seam thats too tight, the actual spinal channel is good. It actually dips at the front, but I like to pull it up into the "gullet"
 
I put the pads back in the haf today as had taken them out but it felt a bit unstable - not sure if it was the extra padding or the fact I had done one less hole each side on the girth to accomodate it.

We werent so sweaty today so no sweat marks for comparison.

I do pull the haf right up into the gullet and havent had any problems with it - even with the trec as long as its pulled up at the front. I know what you mean about the front seam but found that the fact it curves up at the front is sufficient for her especially now she has put a few pounds back on!!!!
 
kathyt1 said:
Don't really agree with the above. After all treeless saddles, including the Fheonix are popular with endurance riding, and I know of some people who showjump and event at intermediate level in them as well as GP dressage.

Weight on the stirrups is distributed across the saddle with webbing so the normal problems with this on some treeless saddles is not as much of a problem as you would get on some. And when you think about it, where is the pressure on tree'd gp and jumping saddles? across the front arch on the withers and how much that weight is distributed across the tree is debatable. I do agree with you though that weight should be distributed on between thighs and feet when riding, but that would be the same whether on a treeless or tree'd saddle.

Don't know if the OP has got the copy of the booklet that would have come with the saddle if she had bought it new? if not, here is a link to it.

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/booklet.htm
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I have ridden in treeless saddle for about 6 years now, had about 15 different saddles (if not more) and done endurance riding in them. I have done endurance in a fhoenix, and when I first got mine I posted on the EE forum and was told the saddles were not designed for endurance and they did not know how they fared, I have found, from personal experience and from others personal experience, that because of the extra pressures from endurance riding and lots of hacking, that a decent pad is needed, the panels of the treeless pads disperse the pressure under the saddle more.

Evenitng is all well and good but you are only in the saddle putting pressure on the stirrup bars for a short amount of time when showjumping or going x country, with endurance riding you can be putting pressure in the stirrups for a long time.
I am not anti treeless, in fact I have 5 at the moment, but do be aware that saddles with a top hanging stirrup bar/ring are more likely to create pressure points on the back, especially with lots of weight in the stirrups and/or doing more miles, which is why I choose saddles with either low stirrup points or one top and bottom, a good pad will give you extra piece of mind when riding, it doesn't have to have huge thick inserts, just some that will spread the load more.
 
I would always get an expert to come out and check the fit. Everyone on the yard will have a different opinon on saddle fit and it's such an important thing to get right.
 
What do you class as an expert though? Someone like a treed saddle fitter that doesn't know one end of a treeless saddle from the other or someone who has actually had experience with a variety of different saddles on a number of different horses?
 
Yes, very good question and an extremely important point! ;)

No_Angel said:
What do you class as an expert though? Someone like a treed saddle fitter that doesn't know one end of a treeless saddle from the other or someone who has actually had experience with a variety of different saddles on a number of different horses?
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One thing i found - when i changed from the Ghost to the Fhoenix was that i was trying to adjust the Fhoenix in the same way i did with the Ghost - putting extra shims on the right where she had muscle wastage. It was frustrating as the Fhoenix just didnt seem to be working (as i had hoped it would). But what i had been doing was interfering with the way the saddle can work on its own - if you know what i mean!! what i did was popped to the shop and got a High Wither saddle cloth and then rode with that. What i found was after a few rides, it just molded to Moets back. I havent had to do any extra padding or anything as it just stays level now, shes developed her muscles on the right now over the last 6 months and we no longer slip anyway!

In the photos (esp the first) i would say its too low at the front - i felt i had the same problem and then went out and bought a prolite wither pad....tried using that for a few days and then got rid - cos actually once you have ridden in the saddle and its warmed up then it was level. its just when it hasnt warmed up it sits proud of the back.

i also found that having a Thorowgood Dressage girth which does up right up to the bottom of the saddle has really helped with the stability of the saddle (in mine and Moets experience that is!!)

Have you got any photos of you on her?

keep us updated on your progress!!

also when i changed from the ghost i actually felt i needed even bigger knee rolls on the Fhoenix - so i bought some second hand HM Dressage knee blocks off ebay - rode with them fr a while and then downsized back to the standard knee blocks as i really didnt need them when i got used to the saddle!
 
So far Ive done Haf with no shims, Haf with full length shims (as supplied), Haf with full length plus extra (upholstery foam) shims, Haf with full and top half shims (how I ride in the trec), just half length shims, and have moved saddle position around to try it all out. Im working hard to get it right for us both and today I think i may have found the solution - it was saddle on bog standard numnah and let the memory foam do its work!

I think all the other options were leaving a non sweaty patch just behind her shoulder where my inner thigh would be and Im pretty sure it was dry because of too much pressure rather than none. Im certainly concious of the pressure on my thigh. The half pads to raise the front were a terrible idea - she was quite twitchy and a bit sore under them when i took the saddle off last night. I think there was a 'ridge' where the pad ended that was causing a pressure spot.

I tried just a normal old numnah today (thanks goodness it didnt sell on ebay!)and there was a much more even sweat pattern so Ill go with that for a while and see how we go.

That said it wasnt a particularly fair trial today as I have ridden loads this week in the new 'correct' position and I can barely walk my front of hips are so sore. Talk about a wake up call - I am very aware of a tendon that goes from my groin to my knee - I can 'feel' it all the way down and when hubby suggested I hop on the back of his bike tonight I told him to **** off, no way was I swinging my leg up and over anything! LOL. Gonna have a day off tomorrow and then Friday we're off to Pontispool so may get someone who knows what they're talking about to have a look at it! I think part of it is that I am conciously trying not to put too much weight into the stirrups so am working my thighs to compensate. Am sure ill get used to it soon. I was worried about not feeling secure but we've had a couple of small hops around and I didnt budge.

Rosie seems to like it - was a bit grumpy with it the first couple of days but has stopped trying to bite me when i girth (she's not one to keep her opinions to herself!) and we have had some really nice relaxed canters but not sure it this is down to the saddle or just that Ive been riding lots.
 
You should get used to the using your thighs, I rode on Sunday after not riding for a couple of weeks and by god the insides of my thighs were aching, it makes them lovely and strong though. If you really want to test if you are riding from your thighs take away your stirrups and try some rising trot :p

Another pad to try if you can get your hands on one is a half lined sheepskin numnah (a wooly one not a silky one as they can be slippy- I would go for a full numnah not a half pad- half pads seem to create more bulk than a full numnah) it should just give a little more protection.

The patch behind her shoulder could be where the padding in the HAF stops?
 
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