Discuss..... (I know how much NR loves cans of worms being opened :D)

C

CER1389

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This thread is loosely based on the controversial thread about the French NH video posted the other day, but equally not meant to be all that controversial!

Someone on the thread (can't remember who and it's now been deleted) said something along the lines of "I'm yet to see a video of someone non NH trained riding their horse with no tack in an open space"
As i was bringing horses in from the field today it got me thinking, that whilst I happily hop on horses bareback with a headcollar and ride them in. I either walk or tolt. I might be leading 4 other horses and have no lead rope contact with the horse I'm riding - I steer of legs and voice. I would also happily tolt like this (although not leading other horses) as I train all 'my' horses to tolt off my seat, with no rein contact. Equally I wouldn't trot or canter as the horses expect to feel the rein contact from me.

It just got me thinking: would it be safe to attempt to ride a horse in a big open space with no tack on it, if the horse had never been conditioned to this? If the horse was expecting some contact (even dressage horses trained to respond to weight aids actively search a contact). Although my dressage instructor could do an elementary test bridleless on her lovely chap - but only in an enclosed arena where he was concentrating!
Equally my knowledge of NH is that the horses are trained and prepared for this, in the same way another horse is trained to be ridden in an open space with a bridle on.

Is saying: I want to see a non NH trained horse be ridden in a big field with no tack on, equivalent in training ideals to saying: I want to see a NH horse wear traditional tack and compete in a showing class (for example)?

Branching off from that slightly, so this thread doesn't turn solely into NH debate :) :
If someone has trained for an end goal or achievement, is it safe or sensible for someone else to attempt the same end goal without any prior training?

I'm guessing it depends on the scale of things: a horse trained to carriage drive only, wouldn't be safe ridden around Badminton. So where do you draw the line? What can you attempt on a horse, if the horse has no prior training for that job? Equally how safe would it be to do so? What constitutes prior training?

This is not meant to turn into a debate per se, but more a discussion on peoples interpretations. I've been pondering this all day :D
 
That depends entirely on how you define "safe". :p Is it determined by how confident the rider feels, or how much they trust the horse, or how placid it is, for example?
Just to add - a debate is great! :D and not to be confused with an argument about beating each other down. A proper argument is heavenly, fair and sensible! :D

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puzzles said:
Just to add - a debate is great! :D and not to be confused with an argument about beating each other down. A proper argument is heavenly, fair and sensible! :D
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NR needs more of them :p It was what attracted me to Nr years ago, because it wasn't all "my hack *pics*" (as much as we all love these threads :p) but it was discussing things, or introducing new ideas, and was really educational.
I think I learn more now in the NH forum, with all the debates, than I do in other areas on NR now. I find it all interesting: as long as it doesn't get personal.

That depends entirely on how you define "safe". :p Is it determined by how confident the rider feels, or how much they trust the horse, or how placid it is, for example?
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Getting back on topic here: I guess I hadn't considered that. I certainly wouldn't feel safe on any horse except 'my' ones, bareback and in a headcollar...but equally others wouldn't feel safe on 'my' ones.
Good additional factor!
 
It really depends what is meant by 'riding' and 'no tack'

Years ago it was the norm to hop on horses bareback with halters and ride them along roads and tracks to their fields. I often rode one and led a couple of others like this for about 3 miles including over open spaces.

No tack without a headcollar is very different. I only discovered recently my daughter did this for years with her pony to bring him in from the field, not sure I would call it riding, more 'homing'!

All of our RS ponies can be ridden in headcollars, it is one of the Saturday Club favourite activities...not tried it in a large open space due to the dreaded H&S.

So yes it is very possible for any horse/pony to be 'ridden' this way

I don't know enough about NH riding to comment the other way round.
 
Riding a horse along a route that they are used to using is slightly different to being able to take that horse into the open and ride with no tack, but it's certainly skillful. :)
"NH" trained horses do compete fully tacked up. How do you spot them though?
I have a little vid clip that is meant to be a bit of fun, shows a couple of horses that are work in progress. They haven't got out much in the past, they are used to working at home and riding out in 300+ acres of scrubland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ES7jdvr0oA&feature=channel_page
They just happen to be riding western, I have other friends who compete "English" but no vid of them.
p.s. When I say no tack I mean no tack. It's handy to have a saddle or pad on though, makes them less slippy LOL!
 
I was just thinking, when I say I'd like to see some of the people on this forum doing what the NH people can do with no tack, I don't for a minute expect them to do it without training. For safety of course they'd have to put in some training, whatever they needed to in their "non NH" world.
Obviously what I'm exploring is this. Some people are hugely critical of just about everything they see on NH -type vids, not really allowing for any positive in them at all. Much more critical than would be allowed on other videos posted on the forum, where people tend to praise up the positives and just ignore the negatives. (There are pretty much always negatives in all of the vids, but why upset people?) I always wonder if the critics have ever attempted to do the work they are pulling apart themselves.
 
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If you find bareback slippy on the bottom, pay attention to what your wearing. I have an old pair of KK breeches, the model of which i cant remember & they are nearing 14yrs old, but the seat is made with a sort of suede fabric & is very non slip when riding bareback. I used to jump on my mare (TB x ID) and my arab in the field when they were still with me & ride with no tack just to check how concentrated they were becoming on subtle weight changes.

Not something I'd tell anyone to go do as you really do have to know your horse & have a clear understanding of how your weight affects the horses movements.
 
Hmmmsy....

I think training is neccessary for whatever end goal you have- i think we often forget that even for the basics training is required to reach our end goal- all the prep that goes into backing a young horse, so that it can be ridden, i feel is neccessary.

But I also think that a well rounded (training-wise, in whatever form of training you predominantly use, be it NH, traditional etc), and calm (and potentially mature) horse could turn a hoof to smaller goals, even if not fully prepared for that goal.

For example, i think a well trained (in other aspects) NH horse that has never worn a bit wouldnt react badly to having a mild bit in, and mild pressure on the bit. In the same respect that a well trained 'traditional' horse can be ridden with minimal problems in a headcollar.

But to do much more than acheive small goals like steer and stop, i think training would be required.

Same goes for riding without a headcollar i think-it depends what 'related' training is in place (your seat aids for tolt, CER for example, or having trained a horse to come back to walk from any speed to go round the corners of fields, as my friend trained her horse). I wouldnt get on a 'just sat on' young horse and expect it to understand what i was asking with completely no tack, but i'd give it a go on my own horse (who i fully admit isnt immaculately trained!!)
 
Some people are hugely critical of just about everything they see on NH -type vids, not really allowing for any positive in them at all.
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I think that's a fair comment, and I wonder how much of it is down to people being overly defensive?

Coming back to the original question, I don't think you will see videos of non NH people riding tackless in an open space, god knows very few NH people are even capable of it. It simply isn't an aim to be trained for for most people, but I assume the thinking behind it is purely to demonstrate the level of training and compliance of the horse, that the tack isn't needed for control.

One question from the deleted thread though which wasn't answered, many of these vids (including the deleted one) were bridleless rather than tackless, the rider still had a neckstrap. Isn't this neckstrap used to cue the horse in the same way as the reins? Riding bridleless with a bloody great carrot stick in one or either hands waving in the horse's face doesn't necessarily count in my book either :D

ETA I could and would ride at least one of mine with a neckstrap only without fear of dying, though it would probably be a bit rustic :D
 
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Yann said:
One question from the deleted thread though which wasn't answered, many of these vids (including the deleted one) were bridleless rather than tackless, the rider still had a neckstrap. Isn't this neckstrap used to cue the horse in the same way as the reins?
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I always thought that-but then I'm a big cynic :rolleyes:

i'm pretty sure, given 10mins to get used the idea, i would happilt canter my horse in an open space with a neckstrap if i could use it in place of a bridle...
 
Yann said:
One question from the deleted thread though which wasn't answered, many of these vids (including the deleted one) were bridleless rather than tackless, the rider still had a neckstrap. Isn't this neckstrap used to cue the horse in the same way as the reins? Riding bridleless with a bloody great carrot stick in one or either hands waving in the horse's face doesn't necessarily count in my book either :D

ETA I could and would ride at least one of mine with a neckstrap only without fear of dying, though it would probably be a bit rustic :D
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I've always wondered this. At the WC's (which is the only place I've witnessed people riding without tack - everything else I've seen from videos) one rider was bridleless but she had a 'string'. She would bring this string up his neck to get the tolt, half way down to get trot/canter and drop it in the breast plate position to slow down a pace. If she 'dropped' it so he couldn't feel it against his neck the stallion stopped altogether. (Can you tell I was watching intently!).
The guy who rode bareback and bridleless still had a stick with him, and he too had different cues to the horse to get it to turn, or change speed.

It seemed to me then that these cues are similar to any type of commands whether that be rein ones, weight aids or verbal commands? So although they have no bridles, they still have their equivalent of breaks.
 
shoniedaspony said:
What were you expecting- the horses to be telepathic? ;)
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:rolleyes: Theres always one!

I don't know....I guess a lot of people are in awe of people who ride without tack....because it looks impressive and the level of trust between horse and rider.
But I'm trying to work out how different it is, why is it more impressive etc. Is it any different to riding with a bridle? (for horses trained bridleless) If the horse and rider still have cues and aids then is there much difference?
 
I suppose thats what I mean about being a cynic- I've never looked at people riding bridleless and thought oh wow they are so amazing, because i've always seen it as training the horse to different aids.

I'm pretty sure with a sensible horse you could train it to stop when you tapped it on the bum with your hand if you wanted to...just depends on wanting it to!
 
I have ' ridden' my TB with no tack or headcollar, I say ridden but was more me sat aboard while he mooched around the field.

He can easily be ridden probably with just a headcollar and would probably be fine with just a neckstrap, he has never had any NH training but he does trust me:)

ETA- Mt TB is quite responsive to seat and leg aids, as is any well schooled horse, nothing NH about that!
 
would it be safe to attempt to ride a horse in a big open space with no tack on it, if the horse had never been conditioned to this?
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Two important things, strong "foundation training" and a strong "bond/communication training" for both horse and rider. With those all things are possible. Uri Peleg is pretty good. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxyQzRTghCM

Riding bridleless with a bloody great carrot stick in one or either hands waving in the horse's face doesn't necessarily count in my book either
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Might not count, but it's a good start. I guess "using a little leg" wouldn't count then either. ;)


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
This is something i feel quite strongly about. You get all these people going on about how your horse has to be trained in NH to be ridden with no tack. Well no not really, i'm sure if i wanted to i could train my horses to be ridden with no tack, the same way they were taught to ride with tack. Let's not call it what it isn't, all it is is breaking a horse to be ridden with no tack. Not NH. I can safely ride my horses round in just a headcollar and lead rope. Over out 100acre field, have the same breaks etc. Only difference is when i don't have tack Lanty thinks it's okay to have a roll whilst i'm sat on him lol.

and I wonder how much of it is down to people being overly defensive?
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How can you expect people who aren't 100% NH not to be defensive? Half the time all i get off people who are is lecturs about how poking my horse with a stick is the natural, best and only way to train it. So naturally anyone who doesn't agree will be defensive. Just in the same way NH people would be defensive when their methods are criticised.

Quite frankly i don't really care what methods of horsemanship people use with their own horses, that's entirely upto them. However i do have a problem with being told what i do is wrong and in a sense cruel to my horses. No not everyone who practices NH does it but you'd be suprised at how many times i've been told it.

But anyway i don't think you have to practice and preech NH to do most the things NH people do. And people who think that IMO are very narrow minded. The new livery down my yard does parelli and i think she's great. But if she ever told me i should do it because it's better i'd have something to say. I hope that made some sort of sense! :eek:
 
I don't understand the concept of "training" a horse to be out in the open tackless. I used to ride my boy in a headcollar or just a leadrope around his neck (because I was lazy- no NH for me!!) and we went out for miles and miles including roads and open fields, woods, jumping arenas (there was one on route). When I went out for the day, after lunch we would have a nap and then generally do some jumping, sometimes I woudn't be bothered to put the headcollar back on. So I was riding in a several acre field, jumping with no saddle, no bridle, no headcollar, no leadrope nothing. No training, I just got on and rode off...:confused:
 
I have jumped on Iacs and ridden him without a bridle, only a headcollar with the rope attached at one point under his chin., cantered up the field, never tired the opposite way as there's no advantage in it for me! ;)
 
When I have ridden with tack (remember Joe, Yann? :)) I sometimes tied my 6ft string round his neck. It was to be used for my own balance if I experienced "slippage" and as a sort of mental safety-net. :D I could ride him in open fields and with other loose horses at walk and trot, and in the arena also at canter. He was a bit of a bolter though if something worried him, and although it was easy enough to halt him in a fairly short distance (with or without anything on his head, a bit made no difference to him actually leaving!), it was handy to hold the string as I leant forward to turn his head. I didn't use the string for steering, but it was there in case I needed to reinforce a halt. Others more expert than me, and maybe who bounced better, did not use anything on the neck.
I don't for a minute think that the "NH" way is the only way to train a horse to be ridden tackless (do liberty work, load at liberty etc etc), I'm interested to see anyone who does it though.
And to be honest, I try to be one of the reasonable, un-radical "NH"ers around here. I'm very live and let live, although I will stick in my two-pennorth if I think it helps. I think you just do what suits you and your horse, but also that an open mind is a powerful thing. Therefore I find it rather trying to find myself being hassled and attacked just because some NH people are evangelical about it. I'm not.
On some other forums when these sort of videos are shown the people who don't use any particularly NH methods don't all start criticising. Some start to look at the possibilities for them to try with their own horses, and get inspired. It doesn't mean that if they start working on these ideas they will go straight and buy some packs off EBay, they may well approach the problem in their own way.
What I love about the people I have met through my travels is how they stretch my imagination and inspire me. I was proud of my tackless riding with Joe, I didn't know anyone else who could do what me and my big cob did. However I have seen people like Philip Nye and Steve Halfpenny, to name just two. They can literally get on their horse straight from the field with no tack and ride off into the distance, at any pace, jumping and just having fantastic fun. To me that is the stuff that dreams are made of, things I could only imagine before. I can't do it, but I don't knock it either.
So - to answer the original question...
would it be safe to attempt to ride a horse in a big open space with no tack on it, if the horse had never been conditioned to this?
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Yes, it would be safe if you trained the horse so they know what to expect and how to react first.
(Why do I sometimes feel like threads like this turn into some sort of competition? Is it only me?).
 
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