Dilute genes - cream, silver dapple, dun, champagne and pearl

chev

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May 7, 2002
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He definitely looks like he's greying out. If he was black + dun with no grey, his head would be darker - you can see grey starting to work on his cheeks and around his eyes. The darker marking on his nasal bones is typical of grey. His mane and tail are also definitely showing signs of grey - they would be the same kind of shade as his legs and nasal bones if there was no grey.

He's lovely... very pretty colour!
 

Spoof

New Member
Current news on the Champagne testing;

Hello all,
I'm Debbie, the one who found the champagne gene. I have the results
on almost all of the horses that people sent to Val for me or that
people sent directly to me. The scientific manuscript is in the review
process and I'm working diligently to wrap up any changes requested by
the reviewers as well as complete the molecular testing so everyone
can have their horses results. The tests don't always work the first
time on every horse and I have a few that the DNA I extracted the
first time didn't seem to work. I am working on new extractions and
tests even as I type this. I found some errors in my genotype record
file as well and I am working to verify each and every test I have run
by going back over the data. The research manuscript will probably be
published fairly quickly after it is through review and resubmitted.
I want to give a huge THANK YOU! to everyone who sent in hair
samples making it possible for this project to be so productive so
quickly. I will be sure to have the result letters mailed out to you
all as soon as the manuscript is accepted for publication. I have the
envelopes addressed and ready to stuff and mail already thanks to Val
and her help.
Debbie
 
L

LeftBrainer

Guest
My boy seems definitely to be dun then:D I've had people assure me he's a chestnut:rolleyes: which with his winter coat he's quite ginger but.... He has dorsal stripe, zebra stripes, cobweb under his forelock, brindling over his shoulders and a little touch of black in his tail. In summer he's tawny lion coloured:) Sounds like a dun to me:cool:
 

welbreds

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Dec 27, 2008
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silver and double creme gene in one stallion

I just wanted to introduce a special sec. A Welsh stallion who is both cremello and has the silver gene! He is Creme de Mint and he was just tested last month. One of my babies should have been a black but came out chocolate with flaxen mane and tail! I'm guessing that this silver gene may have come from the Shetland ponies a very long time ago. Of course that presents embarassing possibilities but it was a thought as to why it is so rare in Welsh ponies. See my stallion at welbreds.com
 

Jorel S

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Aug 30, 2008
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Chev i don't know if you already said this or not, but is there any silver gene in the thoroughbreds? I once saw a horse on horsemart that was thoroughbred that looked liver colour but had a white mane (no pic of tail), is this possible? or does the flaxen gene affect liver's in the same way as regular chestnuts?
 

ambatt

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Apr 24, 2005
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The silver dilute actually only really affects black to give the classic silver dapple colouration which is cocoa powder brown rather than red.

The silver dilute gene (Z) does not affect red pigment at all and does not alter the colour.

There is some effect on bay to give silver dapple bay.

There is no silver dapple in TBs, Arabians, Turanian breeds and many others.

The liklihood of the TB you saw is that it is indeed liver with flaxen, often seen in Welshies, Chev has some fabulous photos of Welsh Ds with this colouration.

There is some debate among colour geneticists about liver chestnut, and that it may be a separate colour...
 

chev

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May 7, 2002
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I'm guessing that this silver gene may have come from the Shetland ponies a very long time ago. Of course that presents embarassing possibilities but it was a thought as to why it is so rare in Welsh ponies.

There is no Shetland in Welsh pony breeding.

I think there are two main reasons for it's comparitive rarity; first is the fact that it hides in both grey and chestnut so can be passed down for generation after generation without being seen at all. My silver Welsh colt got silver from his chestnut dad; it's easy to see in his pedigree how it can have been hidden under grey and chestnut.

Second is the fact that it's been misrecorded as a colour for years and years. My colt was registered as 'dark palomino/dun. In fact he is neither dun nor palomino. But because the WPCS doesn't recognise 'silver dapple' and the vast majority of breeders don't either it's often registered as palomino or some sort of dun.
 

lorna01

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May 25, 2008
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sorry if you have already discussed this.

I have a pure bred arab. when i bought him he was basically bay but became roan and is now a flea bitten grey.

just a daft question, is he able to go in coloured classes (local level) or is that just wishful thinking? lol xxx
 

lorna01

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May 25, 2008
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I have a pure bred arab. when i bought him he was basically bay but became roan and is now a flea bitten grey.

just a daft question, is he able to go in coloured classes (local level) or is that just wishful thinking? lol xxx

ooops was supposed to post this in the grey roan section sorry! xxx
 

chev

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May 7, 2002
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I have a pure bred arab. when i bought him he was basically bay but became roan and is now a flea bitten grey.

just a daft question, is he able to go in coloured classes (local level) or is that just wishful thinking? lol xxx

No - greys are not eligible for coloured classes unless they are coloured under the grey (and even then once they've greyed out completely they probably wouldn't be classed as coloured in showing).
 

lorna01

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May 25, 2008
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No - greys are not eligible for coloured classes unless they are coloured under the grey (and even then once they've greyed out completely they probably wouldn't be classed as coloured in showing).

No acording to the BSPA they are still eligable, so even with the bay flecks??? never mind, just wanted some more classes to do lol x
 

chev

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May 7, 2002
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No, fleabites are a grey thing, not a coloured thing.

I meant that a coloured that's greyed out completely probably wouldn't do well as it's almost impossible to see the patches. So they just look like a grey in a field full of coloureds.
 

horsy

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oooh, have just re-read this as its popped up in new posts, my old horse who I thought was a cremello had greeny/yellow eyes, not blue. Everything I read said Cremello had blue eyes so I was very confused, is it possible he was champagne then? I only have a couple of pictures of him hanging around somewhere and none really close up for a proper look :eek:
 

willumau

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This post is a follow up to my "black buckskin" filly born Oct 2006. See thread below when we were trying to work out her colour.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99889

She is now all grown up and is fully trained Western Performance horse. She still has her pale buckskin patch down her left shoulder, which, to me is better than a brand. Many people have commented on how unusual it is and I have spent many a while explaining to them that she is a black buckskin.....a dilute colour, which means if she is bred, she has a chance of throwing a buckskin or double dilute if she is mated with a another dilute. Hard to believe, I know because she is still so black.

See below photos of her taken in August this year at the Queensland State Quarter Horse Championships where she won Reserve Champion Halter horse AND Reserve Champion Performance horse. I am so proud of my little girl of many colours!

VELVETHUSQHState.jpg


VELVETQHStateTrail2.jpg
 

Purdi

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Sep 4, 2012
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Hello - I've just come across this forum in my efforts to find out what colour my new pony is. so first off I'll say hello everyone!

Can you help settle a family argument as we ALL have a different idea what her colour is, and as we may breed from her in a year or two it would be helpful to find out!!!

Sire is a palomino, and dam is dark chestnut but not liver, and so far as I can find out, there is no grey in the pedigree, and possibly a bay or black about four generations back.

Her coat is a sort of tobacco colour, with a mustard like haze to it, and I'm pretty sure I can see darker dapples all over, particularly as she is starting to moult. Her mane is dark grey with a few chesnut hairs and quite a few whitish ones. Her mane is mainly grey and cream, with a few chestnut hairs. Someone thinks she may have a Gulastra plume tail.

Sooty.jpg

Her legs are a sort of patchy soft palomino colour with white feet, but the white is more of a cream colour. And she has a white blaze with white on lower lip and a few soft white patches near her udders and faint ones under her tail. Here's a photo - although it doesn't show everything I've described due to the light.

It would be great to have your opinions!insight.
 

Cobsize

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Oct 31, 2012
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A recent scientific study of the genetics of Comtois horses have found that they are indeed mostly silver bay and not chestnut although a few in the breed are chestnut (but can still be a carrier of the gene). It was also found the eye anomalies associated with the silver dapple colour gene are common and most of the silver Comtois in the study had eye deformities to a greater or lesser degree, with the recommendation that it is better not to breed two gene carriers together. None of the non-silver bay Comtois had any sign of eye abnormalities.
 

T&T

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Mar 20, 2018
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As Nicole said, there are four known dilute genes in horse coat colours. Some more about the way they work her....

First, the cream gene. Cream is responsible for turning chestnut to palomino, bay to buckskin, and less common colours such as cremello and perlino.

Cream is known as an 'incomplete dominant' - which means that if a horse has one copy of the gene, the coat is diluted, and two copies means it's diluted further. A bit like adding cream to coffee - and some, it gets pale. Add more, it gets paler still.

The gene works primarily on red pigment - if a horse carries two copies some effect will be seen on black, but a black with one cream gene often shows no real sign he's carrying it.

Chestnut with one cream gene gives palomino. These horses have a pale gold body colour and white or creamy white mane and tail. They have dark eyes and dark skin.

Chestnut with two cream genes gives cremello. This causes the eyes to be blue, the skin to be pink, an dbody and mane hair is a very pale cream - these horses can be so pale they're almost whit. Body colour will have a definite cream or off-white tinge if you look closely. This is the reason that palomino is a colour and not a breed - palominos will not breed true.

That means that breeding two palominos together gives a 50% chance of another palomino, a 25% chance of cremello, and a 25% chance of chestnut. Think of any breed - put a Welsh ppony on a Welsh pony, and you'll get another Welsh pony every time.... a breed breeds true. Palominos don't.

Bay with one cream gene gives buckskin. This colour is similar in some ways to golden dun - golden colour body with black mane tail and legs. There are important differences though - the body of a buckskin will be golden, whereas the golden dun tends to be a more faded shade. The legs of a pony with dun won't be truly black - just darker. A buckskin has black points. Duns always have a dorsal stripe - this can occur in other colours, including buckskin, but in a dun will be absolutely sharp, while other colours tend to have a blurry line that 'leaks' into coat colour. Duns also tend to have a darker mask on the face and upper legs, which a buckskin doesn't. Duns often have zebra striping - buckskins usually don't.

Bay with two cream genes gives a shade known as perlino - here the black points are faded too. Perlinos have the same pale cream body colour that cremellos do, but they have a darker shade of mane and tail - the hair here remains a darker, slightly orangey shade.

Black with one cream gene is known as smokey black - often they appear to be black, and the existence of their cream gene is known only when they inexplicably produce a palomino foal when put to a chestnut.

Black with two cream genes is known as smokey cream - these horses are really indistinguishable from cremellos and perlinos, and virtually impossible to identify.

Pic shows a palomino. Although his baby coat is very pale, there is no way he could be cremello - his eyes are dark, his skin is dark, and the darker colour round his muzzle and legs shows the colour he will most likely end up.
Please tell me about my dun. Colour .
And onto dun....

Dun is a simple dominant - that means if a horse has dun, it'll be dun - and the shade will be the same reagrdless of whether it has one copy of dun or two.

Dun differs from cream in that it dilutes both red and black pigment equally, where cream will dilute only red if a horse has one gene, and both black and red if a horse has two.

Dun is known as an 'atavistic' colour - this means that if horse are left to breed among themselves, without human interference, they will, over generations, gradually develop dun colouring.

Dun has several characteristics, some of which were toughed on in the 'cream' post. I'll relist them here.

Duns always have diluted body colour, a little like horses with cream.

Duns always have a dorsal stripe.

Duns often have zebra markings on the legs, and a darker 'mask' of colour on the face - may also show 'cobwebbing' on the face too.

The ears often have a fawn colour inside, and dark tips.

They also often have a lighter colour 'lining' the mane and tail - a two-tone mane and tail (often seen in Highlnds, and in Fjords).

Dun on chestnut - red dun, has darker chestnut mane, tail and legs, and diluted body colour

Dun on bay gives bay dun, or yellow or buckskin dun. Legs will be darker, but not black as in a bay with cream, and the body colour is less 'brilliant' - a aby dun has a very red dilute body, a buckskin dun more yellowy colour.

Dun on black gives grulla, or grullo - also known as mouse dun, the body colour is a shade of grey-brown with darker points. Depending on other modifiers (such as sooty) the colour can vary from a silvery grey through to a dark chocolate.
Could you tell me what dun this is please. IMG_20180323_121059.jpg
 

HaloHoney

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Apr 30, 2017
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Chev last posted on this thread NINE years ago... you might be waiting a while for a response. o_O
 
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