comming behind the vertical

jUmPingIsLifE

jUmPingIsLifE

~A*u*t*u*m*n~S*u*n~
Jan 5, 2002
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after about 30minutes of good work when Tahoe has loosend up and moves freely foward he tends to start getting extreamly soft and supple. Which is a good thing, however Im finding as the work goes on he starts droping lower and deeper (bringing his head behind the vertical). However he isn't really behind the bit. I still have a constant VERY soft feel in my hands and i can still feel himself pushing into it but on and off he does start to lean as he gets tierd. Even in leaning and getting on the forhand though he is so soft and light in my hands. I tried raising my hands the other day and all I achieved was him bringing his head in even more. Normally I would tell someone in my position to make sure they arn't being hard on their hands but I ride him with a steady even light contact and dont do any sort of fiddling with my hands them unless I need a half halt (a half halt with a strong leg stops the leaning immediatly but sometimes he still gets behind the vertical). What is wrong with this picture if anything and how do I put him more on or slightly ahead of the vertical? If i let the reins get longer he nicely stretches his nose right down to the ground to stretch for me in all three gaits, although his balance gets a little off at the canter still. He just does not feel like a horse droping behind the bit really.
 
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jUmPingIsLifE said:
after about 30minutes of good work when Tahoe has loosend up and moves freely foward he tends to start getting extreamly soft and supple. Which is a good thing, however Im finding as the work goes on he starts droping lower and deeper (bringing his head behind the vertical). However he isn't really behind the bit. I still have a constant VERY soft feel in my hands and i can still feel himself pushing into it but on and off he does start to lean as he gets tierd. Even in leaning and getting on the forhand though he is so soft and light in my hands. I tried raising my hands the other day and all I achieved was him bringing his head in even more. Normally I would tell someone in my position to make sure they arn't being hard on their hands but I ride him with a steady even light contact and dont do any sort of fiddling with my hands them unless I need a half halt (a half halt with a strong leg stops the leaning immediatly but sometimes he still gets behind the vertical). What is wrong with this picture if anything and how do I put him more on or slightly ahead of the vertical? If i let the reins get longer he nicely stretches his nose right down to the ground to stretch for me in all three gaits, although his balance gets a little off at the canter still. He just does not feel like a horse droping behind the bit really.
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i know EXACTLY what you mean! my RI's horse does this to the extent you can give the contact away (give and retake the reins) and he remains overbent but very soft in every other way. it is quite frustrating at times and yes, raising the hands puts them deeper, you have to imagine pushing the nose out with your hands without losing contact (is rather strange, when RI told me to do that i was :confused: but i slightly pushed hands forwards without dropping contact) and use your seat to ask for their attention, that seemed to do the trick. We found he tended to do it when tired from either a previous day's work or from previous work in the same day. he had had problems with his back for various reasons and so if he was going to be stiff it would be through his back and although it felt soft he felt more comfortable with his head lowered.
getting the back end more engaged often helps although not always but asking for long and low and a walk break usually helps... it really is annoying when you it feels really soft and light but you know a lot of people will slate you for it!
 
We found that Saff was coming BTV when she was getting tired. It wasn't obvious as she can still hooley around and look as fresh as a daisy but she was. With her we found that it was the cue to start wrapping things up. Now she's fitter and more used to the work that we're doing she goes for a lot longer and rarely comes BTV these days.

Initially we also found that she did it when she was trying to 'work out' the best place for her head. It's not an issue as long as it doesn't become entrenched. I've heard a lot of people say the same when their horses are just starting out.
 
I'd also try changing the bit - by going behind the bit your horse is effectively avoiding the contact, common amongst those with sensitive/ young/fussy mouths. So alongside some time spent doing some good quaility schooling, i recommend that you change your horse's bit (using 'trial and error') to something mild/milder, including:

- curved mouthpieces to relieve pressure off the tongue
- sweet iron/copper/vulcanite/rubber/plastic mouthpieces
- mouthpieces designed to relieve tongue pressure
- a port on the mouthpiece
- Myler bits (with sweet rion mouthpieces and a high port to relieve tongue pressure)

Does your horse react the same way to a hackamore?

Worth a thought!

:)

xx

Good luck!
 
My horse sounds similar to Coss' RI's though he doesn't have back problems. I also find getting the back end working & pushing my hands forwards seems to do the trick though if he wants to work overbent for a short while early in the session I'll let him because it seems to help him loosen up & relax mentally. It's a problem that has improved with maturity & schooling, when he was younger if he was asked to go round then it seemed to be the only way he could manage but increased strength & balance mean he can now carry a "proper" outline so if Tahoe is young it may just be worth bearing with him & letting him sort it out for himself because it doesn't sound as though you're doing anything wrong.
 
In that case I really would consider giving him some time to sort it out himself. For a long long time I could only have two out of forward, roundness & rythym (sp?) then when he started to try & give all three he'd go overbent & lose it quickly unless I held him together which I wasn't prepared to do (he's big & I'm far too lazy to try & prop up 700kg!!!). Eventually it did come, but it took time to build the muscles & in the meantime he found overbending an easier place to be - he still does if he's tired or gets carried away & produces more power than he can deal with. I just used to praise any moves in the right direction & never ask for more than a few strides until I knew he was comfortable giving more.

Bit wise I'd say as long as he seems happy in the contact, & you sound pretty confident that he's taking the contact rather than dropping it, then don't change what you're using. From what you say it's a strength & balance issue so changing his bit won't improve it & may just confuse him.
 
Just saw the post about bits.

Right now he is in a D-Ring French link snaffle. I couldn't afford to be buying differant bits, I could probably buy one new one and see. He hates pressure on his nose. Rode him in a halter once and he was pinning his ears and shaking his head about. Same thing when I threw on a hackamore. He used to go in a simple egbutt snaffle but fought it and awful lot and seems to be happy in the french link.
 
i agree with carthorse. it doesn't sound like he's avoiding the bit - chat are your give and retakes like (you can do them in trot). i think once he has built more muscle and can control the power from the back end and balance better he will come up by himself. i have found a lot of horses go overbent when trying to work out where their head feels most comfortable, they want to find the happy medium and as they muscle up that changes.
 
If your horse is producing good work but then becomes tired and starts leaning, it would suggest he is finding the work hard and his muscles are becoming tired. How often are you schooling him? It takes a certain amount of work to train the muscles and produce 'muscle memory' to work in a certain frame. How many walk and stretch breaks do you give him? And also, I find every horse is different in the amount of good work they can produce, with a horse like this I'd be inclined to finish work once he is working well, and not get to the point where he is getting tired.
 
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